# 2008 Nissan Sentra Stumbles at 3000 RPM



## Nealtw

I know little about this new stuff but there is something about a sensor failure that puts you in safe mode and that has a limit of 3 K


----------



## BigJim

Thanks Neal, I will check that out.


----------



## Nealtw

Sounds like the CVT just needs a transmission oil cooler.


----------



## yardmullet

BigJim said:


> We finally found a Nissan Sentra with a 6 speed manual transmission and bought it. It has the 2.5 engine that I really didn't want but the Sentra is hard to fine with a straight stick. One consolation is the straight stick 2.5 engine don't have the screws that come loose in the power valve and drop into the engine. That is one reason we wanted the straight stick. I also don't trust the CVT transmission, I have heard a lot of bad things about them.
> 
> How ever it does have the pre-cat catalytic converter but I don't know if there are issues with the Sentra like they are with the Altima. I do know the CEL is on so there are issues with the car. I will run a scan tomorrow and see what they are. I will bet one is the catalytic converter.
> 
> We got a really good price on the car and it is clean as a pin. I love driving it except for the stumble at 3000 rpm in 3rd gear, after I hit 4th and on it seems to be ok only if I don't try to increase the speed.
> 
> Would just the Converter cause this. *Oh when it is cold it doesn't stumble, only when it gets full warm. Man I hope this car isn't a money pit like the Pathfinder was. I thought i never was going to stop buying parts for *it.



Hey Jim,
Most have some kinda enrichment function when cold.



So you got rid of Pathfinder?
bg


----------



## ukrkoz

Nealtw said:


> Sounds like the CVT just needs a transmission oil cooler.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAiKa7p0Wxg





He has MANUAL transmission. MANUAL.


----------



## ukrkoz

What year is that Sentra?


----------



## de-nagorg

ukrkoz said:


> What year is that Sentra?


Title: 2008.


ED


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: in the old days B E, ( before electronics), that symptom was a sure sign of sticking mechanical advance in the distributor.

So I suspect that you are on the right track, with checking a code-reader, and seeing what sensors might be fouled up, sending a code to the ECM, to keep the RPM down. 

The worst that could happen, is that you need a new Electronic Control Module, I hope not. $$$.


ED


----------



## BigJim

yardmullet said:


> Hey Jim,
> Most have some kinda enrichment function when cold.
> 
> 
> 
> So you got rid of Pathfinder?
> bg


No, we still have it and the AC is getting worse Bill. We can't get rid of it we have way too much in it to get rid of it. New brakes, new rotors, new wheel cylinders, new front struts, new rear shocks, all four rear trailing arms new $60 bolts in them. two new catalytic converters, two new 02 sensors, new set of tires.

We are only getting 14 mpg in the Pathfinder, that is a bit more than we wish, to drive around town, on the hwy not too bad. The Sentra gets something like 24 mpg city.

I ran a code this morning and there is just one code, P0420 yep catalytic converter. There are no other codes pending so the cat is shot, I think.

I don't know if this cat can be gutted or not. On the Altima it is a single pre-cat, this is two small cats at the pre-cat and two 02 sensors.

I am concerned because this is a 2.5 engine and the Altima with the 2.5 had a serious pre-cat problem where the converter was too close to the exhaust manifold and the high heat destroyed the converter and the sand like stuff got sucked back into the engine and there goes the engine. Also I read that the straight stick trans bolted to the 2.5, there was no power valve.

The power valves on the Nissans are notorious for the screws in the butterflys coming loose and dropping into the engine. Screws inside the combustion chamber aren't real health for the engine. Not to mention that the screws will bend the tang on the spark plugs causing a total misfire and raw gas through a good catalytic converter is death for the converter.

If I can get by the pre-cat and the power valve issue I will be one happy camper. Any information?


----------



## yardmullet

BigJim said:


> No, we still have it and the AC is getting worse Bill. We can't get rid of it we have way too much in it to get rid of it. New brakes, new rotors, new wheel cylinders, new front struts, new rear shocks, all four rear trailing arms new $60 bolts in them. two new catalytic converters, two new 02 sensors, new set of tires.
> 
> We are only getting 14 mpg in the Pathfinder, that is a bit more than we wish, to drive around town, on the hwy not too bad. The Sentra gets something like 24 mpg city.
> 
> I ran a code this morning and there is just one code, P0420 yep catalytic converter. There are no other codes pending so the cat is shot, I think.
> 
> I don't know if this cat can be gutted or not. On the Altima it is a single pre-cat, this is two small cats at the pre-cat and two 02 sensors.
> 
> I am concerned because this is a 2.5 engine and the Altima with the 2.5 had a serious pre-cat problem where the converter was too close to the exhaust manifold and the high heat destroyed the converter and the sand like stuff got sucked back into the engine and there goes the engine. Also I read that the straight stick trans bolted to the 2.5, there was no power valve.
> 
> The power valves on the Nissans are notorious for the screws in the butterflys coming loose and dropping into the engine. Screws inside the combustion chamber aren't real health for the engine. Not to mention that the screws will bend the tang on the spark plugs causing a total misfire and raw gas through a good catalytic converter is death for the converter.
> 
> If I can get by the pre-cat and the power valve issue I will be one happy camper. Any information?



Jim,
Try these links:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=2008+sentra+misses+at+3000rpm&t=ffnt&ia=web


Wish I could have taken more time on your ac. My jeep was getting hinky-was why I took so long getting to your house after exit. Couldn't go over 50 on highway and was getting slower. Went home up I24 over the hills following 18 wheelers, finally driving on apron at 5mph and bailed at that truck pulloff after 64, got a tow home. Real nice guy -Pat Mid State Towing Hillsborough. Seemed to know stuff. We talked about your ac. He suggested expansion valve.
But looking at your expenditures for vehicle repairs, maybe I need to open a shop over there:smile:

bg


----------



## BigJim

yardmullet said:


> Jim,
> Try these links:
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=2008+sentra+misses+at+3000rpm&t=ffnt&ia=web
> 
> 
> Wish I could have taken more time on your ac. My jeep was getting hinky-was why I took so long getting to your house after exit. Couldn't go over 50 on highway and was getting slower. Went home up I24 over the hills following 18 wheelers, finally driving on apron at 5mph and bailed at that truck pulloff after 64, got a tow home. Real nice guy -Pat Mid State Towing Hillsborough. Seemed to know stuff. We talked about your ac. He suggested expansion valve.
> But looking at your expenditures for vehicle repairs, maybe I need to open a shop over there:smile:
> 
> bg


Man I really hate you had all that trouble on your way home.


----------



## BigJim

I drove the Sentra today and when it was cold it ran great no problems and had fantastic power. The 200 hp in that little car will get up and go. Soon as it got to full temps, it started bogging down when accelerating/ I was wrong it doesn't wait until 3000 rpm, it bogs down at any rpm when I accelerate, very little power and jerking almost like a heat checked brake drum will make a car jerk when stopping only worse. 

I hope the next couple of days I can get that converter off so I can punch it out and see if that is what it is. If it is I will just go ahead and buy one and replace it. This car uses premium gas and I can bet who owned it before used regular ethanol gas. What ever caused the converter to go bad needs to be fixed so another one don't go down the tubes, they are kinda proud of them things. Not to mention I am really getting way to old to crawl under a car.


----------



## yardmullet

Jim,
Have you looked at those links?
One of 'em is bad, but several describe your post.
Codes?
Even with codes throwing parts at symptoms is...
bg


----------



## yardmullet

Jim,


I have 320k miles on my 03 Tundra and have never had any 02 sensor or cat codes. Maybe just luck.
bg


----------



## BigJim

I just checked out the links and a couple of things there seem to pertain to our 2.5. In the link, that person's car is having a misfire which is causing the jerking and bucking. Our car doesn't have a misfire and don't buck as bad as her's does. It is almost like I am pulling a heavy load uphill with an under powered car or truck that needs a tune up. The car is a 6 speed stick and coming up some of the mountains around here I have to down shift to third to get up them, and they are not a steep grade at all. Well most of them aren't.

I hope tomorrow I can get the converter off, and then clean the MAF and check out some stuff. If that converter is causing a jam it has got to really be jamed up pretty bad to keep the exhaust from getting out easier. I think some one put a hot rod muffler on the car, it sounds kinda like one of the buzz bomb cars these kids drive around town.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: I just remembered something from my past. 

Had a Ford pickup come in with very similar symptoms, bog down at anything over 20 mph, felt like it was dragging Mount Shasta, ran fine at idle, very similar to your description. 

Turned out that the Spark Plugs had over 30,000 miles on them. 

Sold them new Plugs, installed them, Truck ran great again. 

Do you know how many miles are on your plugs?

Probably worth your efforts to do a tune-up, with all new plugs wires, and the rest of the consumable parts of this ignition system. 

I don't know about your State, but here where things are lax, they still FROWN on people modifying their exhaust, even temporarily. 

Be careful, and don't tell anyone, even us here on the forum, you never know when " Brother", is watching. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: I just remembered something from my past.
> 
> Had a Ford pickup come in with very similar symptoms, bog down at anything over 20 mph, felt like it was dragging Mount Shasta, ran fine at idle, very similar to your description.
> 
> Turned out that the Spark Plugs had over 30,000 miles on them.
> 
> Sold them new Plugs, installed them, Truck ran great again.
> 
> Do you know how many miles are on your plugs?
> 
> Probably worth your efforts to do a tune-up, with all new plugs wires, and the rest of the consumable parts of this ignition system.
> 
> I don't know about your State, but here where things are lax, they still FROWN on people modifying their exhaust, even temporarily.
> 
> Be careful, and don't tell anyone, even us here on the forum, you never know when " Brother", is watching.
> 
> ED


Thanks Ed, I am only gutting the cat to see if there is a restriction, I have already found the cat I want to buy from Rockauto. If that helps and runs good I will know that is all I need to do is replace the cat. Man they are proud of it too. But it is SS and has two cats built into a set of headers and incorporated into the exhaust manifold. 

I will do a tune up on it because I have no idea how long the plugs have been in this car, it has 138,000 miles (somewhere around there).


----------



## BigJim

Whoooo mama, that converter is unreal to get off. I started yesterday evening and I still don't have it off. I think it would be easier to just pull the blame engine and get to it that way as it is now.

I did clean the MAF and throttle body yesterday. The K&N filter had so much oil on it, it was unreal. I blew a lot of the oil off because I felt a mist of the oil was getting on the little very fine wire of the MAF causing problems. I hope to get the cat off today, Lord willing, an see what it looks like. I will go ahead and do a tune up while I can get to the plugs easier now that all the junk is off the top of the motor. There really isn't any plug wires, there is a separate coil for each plug and I sure don't want to replace them bad boys. 

This little car uses premium gas as it is a higher performance engine (Spec V) Why in the world would they put a 200 hp engine in a little car like this is beyond me. It may have all the bells and whistles of a sports car but it flat out has the looks of a family car. No self respecting hot rodder would even attempt to rod one of these little cars out, they just don't look the part. LOL

By the way, will it mess anything up by leaving the battery unhooked for a day or two?


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: you underestimate teenage rodders.

I have seen them here racing their little " rice-rockets", up and down the boulevard that I used to "fly" on. 45 years ago. 

They have these little cars wound so tight, that I swear they have a hornets nest under the hood, from the BUZZING sounds they are making. :vs_laugh:

Leaving the battery unhooked for hours, usually just causes all the preset memory to be erased, and the ECM will need to re learn a lot of things, but it happens a lot, at the dealership repair.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: you underestimate teenage rodders.
> 
> I have seen them here racing their little " rice-rockets", up and down the boulevard that I used to "fly" on. 45 years ago.
> 
> They have these little cars wound so tight, that I swear they have a hornets nest under the hood, from the BUZZING sounds they are making. :vs_laugh:
> 
> Leaving the battery unhooked for hours, usually just causes all the preset memory to be erased, and the ECM will need to re learn a lot of things, but it happens a lot, at the dealership repair.
> 
> 
> ED


Will I have to have it hauled to the dealer to relearn the ECM? Man I sure hope not.

I FINALLY got the catalytic converter off, that was not fun. I had to finally take the fans out to get enough clearance to get that blame thing out. I won't have to wonder how the car will run with the converter gutted, there is nothing in there. Someone already gutted the thing. there is not one spec of anything. 

Am I right or not, the catalytic stuff is supposed to be between the upstream 02 sensor and the downstream 02 sensor right? If so, there is nothing there. The car dealer sold me a car with no converter on it. I didn't look real close but I didn't see another converter further back either. Man I hope I don't have to replace both of them.


----------



## de-nagorg

The ECM should have a permanent program in it that allows the car to start and run. 

The memory that is lost is just the sensor inputs, accumulated over time, about the emissions control, and the other controls that it monitors and adjusts, depending on what is being sent to it by those pesky sensors. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> The ECM should have a permanent program in it that allows the car to start and run.
> 
> The memory that is lost is just the sensor inputs, accumulated over time, about the emissions control, and the other controls that it monitors and adjusts, depending on what is being sent to it by those pesky sensors.
> 
> ED


Thanks buddy, I appreciate you.


----------



## Nealtw

And it may run better when it resets to factory defaults.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> And it may run better when it resets to factory defaults.


Wouldn't that be wonderful, I sure can hope it does.


----------



## BigJim

I thought I had replied to this one. I must be more tired than I thought. LOL

Well so much for the car running better after the EMC reset itself. It still runs just like it did. I just can't believe it, when I looked under the rest of the car today, I saw that they had cut the rear catalytic converter out also. It hasn't been long either the pipe they used to replace the converter with is still new and no rust on the weld bead at all. I was so ticked that I didn't look to see if they had cut the 02 sensor wires also. That is really going to make me very unhappy if they did.

So now I have got to buy two new catalytic converters before I can go through inspection.

I still can't figure out why the car runs so sluggish when it gets fully warm. I need to learn how to read my OBD III reader so I can see what is going on. Also the oil pressure is really low when it gets warmed up. 

No one is going to work on the exhaust with the rear cat gone. I don't have a torch or welding rig any more so I am in a mess. I should insist that the car dealer we bought the car from to put the rear one on. I can do the front one and it won't be that hard now that I know I have to remove half the world to get it off. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: Call that dealer, and ask nicely first about getting the exhaust corrected. 

I'm not sure about your state, but here we have a " lemon law", where you have a certain few days to return a POS, that you bought, and demand a full refund. 

Besides I thought that it was illegal for a dealer to sell cars with their pollution reduction systems damaged. 

Don't they have to pass the same safety inspections that you do , before they can sell a car? 

It would seem so, as they are selling them as road worthy, which should mean licensable.


ED


----------



## BigJim

Ed they don't have inspections in that county but the county we live in does. Here if you don't pass the emissions test, you don't get your tags or even can get the car registered.

Oh I wouldn't think about returning the car, it is worth way more than what we gave for it. It does have some issues but even if I had to replace the engine it would still be worth doing.

This little car doesn't have a scratch on it and inside it is brand new perfect, everything works except for the bogging down issue and the blame exhaust and that part about the engine being too close to the side wall. I can fix them, then the car would be worth more than twice of what we paid for it. It even has a set of brand new Pirelli tires on it. And a straight stick is hard to find now days.

I really do appreciate your advice Ed. I am just trying to find out what would make the car bog down after it gets full operating temperature. I am going to unplug the MAF and see if anything changes. If that isn't it, I will unplug the 02 sensors and see if that does anything. I already plan to change out the plugs. That will be fun, all the junk they put on an engine now days is stupid.

I will buy the new Cats front and back and if I can't get anyone to put the rear one on, I will take it back up there and try to get him to put it on.


----------



## raylo32

On many cars the downstream cat isn't monitored and factored into the ECU. The front cat has the upstream and downstream sensors to adjust fuel/air ratios and to make sure the cat is working. The secondary cat is usually a "dumb" cat that just does a little extra cleanup. Many guys in the Corvette world remove those and the cars still pass emissions where they just do an OBD 2 read and not a visual. I wouldn't recommend that personally but if that's the cat that's missing putting in a new one won't change how it runs.


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> Ed they don't have inspections in that county but the county we live in does. Here if you don't pass the emissions test, you don't get your tags or even can get the car registered.
> 
> Oh I wouldn't think about returning the car, it is worth way more than what we gave for it. It does have some issues but even if I had to replace the engine it would still be worth doing.
> 
> This little car doesn't have a scratch on it and inside it is brand new perfect, everything works except for the bogging down issue and the blame exhaust and that part about the engine being too close to the side wall. I can fix them, then the car would be worth more than twice of what we paid for it. It even has a set of brand new Pirelli tires on it. And a straight stick is hard to find now days.
> 
> I really do appreciate your advice Ed. I am just trying to find out what would make the car bog down after it gets full operating temperature. I am going to unplug the MAF and see if anything changes. If that isn't it, I will unplug the 02 sensors and see if that does anything. I already plan to change out the plugs. That will be fun, all the junk they put on an engine now days is stupid.
> 
> I will buy the new Cats front and back and if I can't get anyone to put the rear one on, I will take it back up there and try to get him to put it on.


Jim: it sounds like it's a gem, appearance wize, but you know the old adage about a Sows Ear?

I'm not deriding the car, I ain't seen it, driven it, or really know it's history. 

Thinking of that, did you ask CARFAX, about a background check on this one. 

Their fee might be worth it to learn something about it. 

That said, after buying the new Cats, asking nicely at the dealer would be a great idea, to get them installed, for little to no labor cost. 

A dealer that wants a return customer, might be willing to deal with you on the labor costs. 

They know that a good word from you, to your friends, might bring them more customers.


ED


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> On many cars the downstream cat isn't monitored and factored into the ECU. The front cat has the upstream and downstream sensors to adjust fuel/air ratios and to make sure the cat is working. The secondary cat is usually a "dumb" cat that just does a little extra cleanup. Many guys in the Corvette world remove those and the cars still pass emissions where they just do an OBD 2 read and not a visual. I wouldn't recommend that personally but if that's the cat that's missing putting in a new one won't change how it runs.


On this car, the upstream cat has 4 02 sensors on it, but the upstream cat has two cats in one which is made into the exhaust manifold. I really hope that there isn't a 02 sensor on the downstream one, that would be a bonus.


----------



## de-nagorg

That looks like something out of a low budget horror movie. 

Attack of the exhaust system, or something out of " War of The Worlds."

:devil3:

ED


----------



## de-nagorg

Study up on your diagnostics tool, and make sure that you get the proper codes from this car. 

A person can get improper readings if they did not enter the proper instructions for it. 

Say a vehicle a year newer, or older, might have completely different code output. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

Our grandson has one of the $4,000 analyzers, he put that on the car this evening and the MAF is not putting out correctly and it threw a code for the 02 sensors this time. Didn't spit a code for no converters though. I still don't think the car will run right until we put the new converters on so I am going to get them and a MAF, change the spark plugs and see what happens then. 

Have you priced spark plugs now days? :vs_shocked: I thought it was crazy when they went up to a dollar. LOL


----------



## de-nagorg

Spark plugs are like anything else, they are going to charge as much as they can get for them. 

And they must be making them from solid gold now, the cost is high.


ED


----------



## Brainbucket

BigJim said:


> Our grandson has one of the $4,000 analyzers, he put that on the car this evening and the MAF is not putting out correctly and it threw a code for the 02 sensors this time. Didn't spit a code for no converters though. I still don't think the car will run right until we put the new converters on so I am going to get them and a MAF, change the spark plugs and see what happens then.
> 
> Have you priced spark plugs now days? :vs_shocked: I thought it was crazy when they went up to a dollar. LOL


MAF Sensors hates KN air filters as the oil kills them. They do have oil less air filters. MAF are heated to measure the air so oil pollutes them. So more than likely it's bad. Try electronic contact cleaner spray to clean the MAF as anything else leaves a coating on there. What o2 sensor code(s)? If it's rear O2's, you can get O2 extenders off Ebay for around $20.00 bucks. It extends the reach of the O2 so it "lies" to the PCM so no need to install cats. All the inspection does is look for codes. If it's upstream O2 codes, it's engine and a bad MAF will cause all kinda crap. Inspect muffler as the cats may have emptied into it and it doesn't rear it's ugly head until it's hot. Install OEM plugs:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> MAF Sensors hates KN air filters as the oil kills them. They do have oil less air filters. MAF are heated to measure the air so oil pollutes them. So more than likely it's bad. Try electronic contact cleaner spray to clean the MAF as anything else leaves a coating on there. What o2 sensor code(s)? If it's rear O2's, you can get O2 extenders off Ebay for around $20.00 bucks. It extends the reach of the O2 so it "lies" to the PCM so no need to install cats. All the inspection does is look for codes. If it's upstream O2 codes, it's engine and a bad MAF will cause all kinda crap. Inspect muffler as the cats may have emptied into it and it doesn't rear it's ugly head until it's hot. Install OEM plugs:vs_cool:


BB I really appreciate your information. I will get rid of the K&N filter and replace with a regular one. I replaced the plugs today, man they love them things. I took the oil foulers back off and just put the 02 sensors back in. I did a test on my OBDII scanner it is an Ancel AD530. It shows the MAF is one of them, the catalytic converter, Evap,
here are some of the readings from the scanner, I don't have a clue what any of them mean:
TP_R 1.6%
TP_B 3.9%
APP_D 0.0%
APP_E 0.0%
TAC_PCT 3.9%
MIL_TIME 0d:00h:04m
BARO 100Pa
CATEMP11 204.0C
CATEMP21 204.0C
VPWR 13.840V
LOAD_ABS 21.2%
LAMBDA 0.995
02S21 2.156V
EVAP_PCT 0.0%
FLI 44.3%
WARM_UPS 0
EVAP_VP 0.0Pa
OBDSUP OBD2
RUNTM 428sec
MIL_DIST OKM
LAMBDA11 1.009
02S11 2.256V
LAMBDA21 0.994
MAF 4.45g/s
TP 3.9%
02S12 0.90V
SHRTFT12 ---
02S22 0.280V
SHRTFT22 ---
SHRTFT2 -0.8%
LONGFT2 0.0%
RPM 787/min
VSS OKm/h
SPARKADV 11.0
IAT 42C
FUELSYSA OL
FUELSYSB CL
LOAD_PCT 27.8%
ECT 75C
SHRTFT1 0.0%
LONGFT 0.0%

P0153 02 SENSOR CIRCUIT SLOW RESPONSE BANK 2 SENSOR 1
PO153 02 SENSOR CIRCUIT SLOW RESPONSE BANK 2 SENSOR 1
P0031 HO2S HEATER CONTROL CIRCUIT LOW BANK 1 SENSOR 1
P0113 INTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE SENSOR 1 CIRCUIT HIGH BANK 1
P0102 MASS OR VOLUME AIR FLOW SENSOR A CIRCUIT LOW
P1148 CLOSED LOOP FAULT DETECTED (BANK 1)

Man if you can read these you are a genius. I really need to learn what all this means.


----------



## Nealtw

@*BigJim*
You can google each of those last 6 items for an idea of what is going on.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> @*BigJim*
> You can google each of those last 6 items for an idea of what is going on.


I did Neal, sigh, it ain't pretty. Man when it comes to buying cars I seem to pick all the ones that are in need of a LOT of repair.

It looks like I have a leak in the Evap Canister, I also will need the two converters, a MAF and hope like the dickens that is all. I ran a test on all the 02 sensors and it said they passed. I read where the two things that look like upstream 02 sensors aren't 02 sensors at all, they sure do look like it though.

The two sensors that look like upstream 02 sensors had a shield around them. They would not allow me to get a 02 socket on them to get them off, I had to bend the shields. When I got them off I cut the blame things off, I sure hope it don't mess them up.

I need to find out how to find the leak in the Evap canister, the cheapest one I found was $160.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> I did Neal, sigh, it ain't pretty. Man when it comes to buying cars I seem to pick all the ones that are in need of a LOT of repair.
> 
> It looks like I have a leak in the Evap Canister, I also will need the two converters, a MAF and hope like the dickens that is all. I ran a test on all the 02 sensors and it said they passed. I read where the two things that look like upstream 02 sensors aren't 02 sensors at all, they sure do look like it though.
> 
> The two sensors that look like upstream 02 sensors had a shield around them. They would not allow me to get a 02 socket on them to get them off, I had to bend the shields. When I got them off I cut the blame things off, I sure hope it don't mess them up.
> 
> I need to find out how to find the leak in the Evap canister, the cheapest one I found was $160.


It is not the 60s anymore.


----------



## BigJim

In reading more tonight I see that it isn't the canister but the valves. I have watched a couple of videos that explain the Evap process and see that is probable it a valve. I just hope it is the one under the hood and not under the car.


----------



## Brainbucket

Put a good MAF on it with filter, wipe the codes and drive it. The P0031 might need to be replaced. Drive it and see what codes come back. Don't get the parts cannon out as it can get expensive.:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

I really do appreciate you BB, you are a life saver. I will do just that and see what happens. Thanks a ton.


----------



## raylo32

Another possibility for EVAP codes is the gas cap not sealing properly. Maybe have a look at yours... maybe BB can suggest a way to test these?


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Another possibility for EVAP codes is the gas cap not sealing properly. Maybe have a look at yours... maybe BB can suggest a way to test these?


Thanks Ray, I appreciate your suggestion, I will check it out.

Here is a video of a car exactly like ours, same color except inside ours is black and we have the nicer rims. Not a scratch outside and inside is like totally new.
That is the reason we don't want to return it.


----------



## Brainbucket

I don't see an evap code so I would forget it. If there is a code, we do this last. Those 'oil foulers' you mentioned, did they come off the rear(downstream) o2's? If so and you don't have cats, save them as they are the o2 extenders that lie to the PCM. Sometimes I've put 2 of them on an o2 to get it to lie correctly.:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> I don't see an evap code so I would forget it. If there is a code, we do this last. Those 'oil foulers' you mentioned, did they come off the rear(downstream) o2's? If so and you don't have cats, save them as they are the o2 extenders that lie to the PCM. Sometimes I've put 2 of them on an o2 to get it to lie correctly.:vs_cool:


BB the oil foulers were on the upstream sensors. 

I went ahead and ordered a new gas cap along with the front and rear cats, I ordered a MAF sensor also. I sure do hope that is all that is wrong with this car, we are totally broke now. I will have to count my change to get a new air filter. lol

I will let you know how it does after I get all this stuff on there. Thank you ever so much again.


----------



## Brainbucket

Ok. They came off the upstream o2's. Still keep them as you'll prolly need them for the rear. That bad MAF will make the PCM go crazy. Install New MAF, your upstream o2's, rear extenders for the downstream o2's , rear o2's and drive it. The air temp is in the MAF so once you replace the MAF, it should make the P0113 go away. Evap will take a while to recode, if it does.:vs_cool:
Edit; I didn't rear your whole post. I was trying to see if you could get away without installing cats. Then you don't need the o2 extenders. Just install the rear o2 and keep those extenders. I'm pretty much positive that bad MAF screwed everything else up. Burning rich and melted the cats.


----------



## de-nagorg

I can smell one running rich, If you know what it smells like, you should be able to also. 

That will surely cause the cats to die an early grave.


ED


----------



## BigJim

I was looking up what an air filter for the car and saw what the one I have on there costs, can you believe someone gave for that K&N filter. At the auto parts here they are $54. The price of things have gone up so much it is unreal, even a regular filter is $16.

What blows my mind is parts from rockauto are as cheap as they are, ball joints for a little over $3, that is just crazy.

A quick question does rubber supposed to go under this engine mount they jury rigged?


----------



## de-nagorg

Try to find out how that is supposed to be mounted, there might be special spacers that go there instead of those washers.

And K&N has always been way more expensive air filters, even in the 70's when I first saw them. 

ED


----------



## raylo32

Jim,

Did you look for air leaks in the intake plumbing? if you have a leak that lets unmetered air in after the MAF it will run really bad... if at all depending on how much air is getting in.


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Did you look for air leaks in the intake plumbing? if you have a leak that lets unmetered air in after the MAF it will run really bad... if at all depending on how much air is getting in.


No I didn't think to look there Ray, a leak didn't show up when I did a scan at least not there. The only leak that showed up was the Evap showed a small leak, I am really hoping that will be the gas cap.

Ed, would you have ever thought 8, 4 inch bolts and nuts would have cost $60.

I just have a feeling there is a spacer made of rubber or a solid spacer goes where they put those lock washers. One other thing I really need to correct is the engine is so close to the side wall. I literally had to drive a wooden wedge between the engine and the side wall to get the belt off. The balancer was no more than an 1/8 inch from touching the side wall. Something had to smack that car or it did the smacking.

I have looked everywhere I can think of to see another engine that has that type of mount to see what is there.


----------



## de-nagorg

Quoted: Something had to smack that car or it did the smacking.



A CARFAX report will tell you if it ever had any accident reports, and extensive "real shop" body work. 

I understand, that you are getting car poor, but as I suggested earlier, buying a report, will explain many things. 

I make it a practice now to get one when I am serious about purchasing another ride.

Saved me a lot once, when I was looking at a KATRINA salvage junker. 

They acted like they did not know that it had been flooded, and sold as scrap. 


ED 


PS. yes every engine that I have ever R&R ed, had rubber isolation mounting points, it's inconceivable that Nissan, would have mounted it that way as shown.


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Quoted: Something had to smack that car or it did the smacking.
> 
> 
> 
> A CARFAX report will tell you if it ever had any accident reports, and extensive "real shop" body work.
> 
> I understand, that you are getting car poor, but as I suggested earlier, buying a report, will explain many things.
> 
> I make it a practice now to get one when I am serious about purchasing another ride.
> 
> Saved me a lot once, when I was looking at a KATRINA salvage junker.
> 
> They acted like they did not know that it had been flooded, and sold as scrap.
> 
> 
> ED
> 
> 
> PS. yes every engine that I have ever R&R ed, had rubber isolation mounting points, it's inconceivable that Nissan, would have mounted it that way as shown.


Actually this and the Pathfinder are all we have now. If we have a break down, there is no one to help us go get parts or have a ride so we need to have a backup. 
Hmmm, hadn't thought about looking up the vin#.

There is rubber between that upper piece and the body of the car, just not between there and the engine. 

Man I need more coffee. lol


----------



## Brainbucket

BigJim said:


> No I didn't think to look there Ray, a leak didn't show up when I did a scan at least not there. The only leak that showed up was the Evap showed a small leak, I am really hoping that will be the gas cap. <<Parts Canon:wink2:
> 
> Ed, would you have ever thought 8, 4 inch bolts and nuts would have cost $60.
> 
> I just have a feeling there is a spacer made of rubber or a solid spacer goes where they put those lock washers. One other thing I really need to correct is the engine is so close to the side wall. I literally had to drive a wooden wedge between the engine and the side wall to get the belt off. The balancer was no more than an 1/8 inch from touching the side wall. Something had to smack that car or it did the smacking.
> 
> I have looked everywhere I can think of to see another engine that has that type of mount to see what is there.


 
The pulley being that close to the wall concerns me. Either motor mounts are bad, engine cradle has shifted, bent. Something isn't right. You should be able to run your hand through there, except the Mini Cooper. Those thing are sandwiched in there. Found a link at you tube. 



 That bracket that connects to the Passenger side motor mount is not installed properly. :vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> The pulley being that close to the wall concerns me. Either motor mounts are bad, engine cradle has shifted, bent. Something isn't right. You should be able to run your hand through there, except the Mini Cooper. Those thing are sandwiched in there.:vs_cool:


Wow, that is what I thought, how could a wrench fit in there if it were that close, I would have to pull the engine to take a bolt out. I will be doing some serious checking to see what I can see under there. I will get some photos and show you what I mean about being close.

If that cradle is bent, I don't know how I will unbend it but I will sure try. I see where several things have been jury rigged on the car and that does concern me. The jake leg told us an old woman had something in the rear of the car removed. Lying son of a gun. No little old lady had this car, no way a little old lady would have spent $54 for a K&N air filter. Little old ladies don't care much for a straight stick. A little old lady couldn't get any shop in their right mind to cut out a cat and weld a straight pipe in there either. And you know a shop sure isn't going to suggest it.

I hope there aren't more surprises down the road. Man I can really pickum,

Thanks BB, I will let you know what I find once I get back under the car.


----------



## raylo32

Damn, Jim. If it weren't for bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all.




BigJim said:


> Wow, that is what I thought, how could a wrench fit in there if it were that close, I would have to pull the engine to take a bolt out. I will be doing some serious checking to see what I can see under there. I will get some photos and show you what I mean about being close.
> 
> If that cradle is bent, I don't know how I will unbend it but I will sure try. I see where several things have been jury rigged on the car and that does concern me. The jake leg told us an old woman had something in the rear of the car removed. Lying son of a gun. No little old lady had this car, no way a little old lady would have spent $54 for a K&N air filter. Little old ladies don't care much for a straight stick. A little old lady couldn't get any shop in their right mind to cut out a cat and weld a straight pipe in there either. And you know a shop sure isn't going to suggest it.
> 
> I hope there aren't more surprises down the road. Man I can really pickum,
> 
> Thanks BB, I will let you know what I find once I get back under the car.


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Damn, Jim. If it weren't for bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all.


Buddy, ain't that the truth. It has been that way all my life, if anything can go wrong or be messed up it will happen to me. Looks like I would be use to it by now. LOL

Now on top of this, the AC in the Pathfinder isn't working at all. I just don't have the time to check it out right now.

I have got to put a Catalytic converter and both tie rod ends on our daughter's car so she can get it inspected. Man I am too old for this stuff. Well at least it is exercise. lol If I wasn't retired, I would never find time to do all this.


----------



## raylo32

Tell me about it... Same here. I just replaced the aftermarket backup camera in my Tacoma yesterday. It was a Pioneer that I put in with a JVC head unit 10 years ago. I had since changed out the head unit to a Pioneer a few years ago and the camera was still good. But it died about a year ago. Now I am retired no excuse to let it go.

It could maybe have been a simple job if I had got another Pioneer cam but for some reason I picked an Alpine. Looked like a better cam. Tried splicing it in but no video. Turns out the Pioneer cam's power supply was putting out lower voltage (3.5V) than the Alpine (6V). Maybe that's why the Pioneer cam "died"?? I dunno.

So I had to do the full monty to install the new power supply and extension cable to the camera... rip out the head unit, pull all the dash panels, remove the driver's seat, etc. Up, down, crawling around and under... last night I felt like I went ten rounds with Mike Tyson.




BigJim said:


> Man I am too old for this stuff. Well at least it is exercise. lol If I wasn't retired, I would never find time to do all this.


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Tell me about it... Same here. I just replaced the aftermarket backup camera in my Tacoma yesterday. It was a Pioneer that I put in with a JVC head unit 10 years ago. I had since changed out the head unit to a Pioneer a few years ago and the camera was still good. But it died about a year ago. Now I am retired no excuse to let it go.
> 
> It could maybe have been a simple job if I had got another Pioneer cam but for some reason I picked an Alpine. Looked like a better cam. Tried splicing it in but no video. Turns out the Pioneer cam's power supply was putting out lower voltage (3.5V) than the Alpine (6V). Maybe that's why the Pioneer cam "died"?? I dunno.
> 
> So I had to do the full monty to install the new power supply and extension cable to the camera... rip out the head unit, pull all the dash panels, remove the driver's seat, etc. Up, down, crawling around and under... last night I felt like I went ten rounds with Mike Tyson.


Buddy that wore me out just reading that. I bet you were tired and wore out after all that. Your luck sounds about like mine.


----------



## BigJim

I got the rear catalytic converter yesterday along with the MAF sensor and gas cap. The front cat is supposed to be here today. It looks like the rear cat they sent is the wrong one. The flange only has two bolt holes and the one coming out of the front cat has 3 bolt holes. That may not be where the rear cat goes but since they cut the pipe and welded a straight pipe in, I have no clue how it actually goes in there. I think they may have cut the flange out along with the rear converter.

I have looked all over the internet trying to find how a stock exhaust for 2008 Sentra SE-R Spec V with a 2.5 200hp engine looks like. I have found diagrams of exhausts but the one under the car looks nothing like that. 

I guess I need to contact Rockauto and see what they have to say about the cat. The strange thing is they only had one style rear cat and this is it.

Question, It states that I have to use premium unleaded, what will happen if I use regular octane gas? I am old school mechanic and not familiar with these newer cars. Will it mess up my converters?


----------



## raylo32

Jim, you got an SE-R? That is the hot rod version certainly not a little old lady's car. Good chance whoever had it modified it a lot so who knows what you will find. As far as octane, no, using regular won't hurt the cats. But it may allow the engine to knock which could damage the pistons and such if it gets bad enough. Most modern cars have knock sensors that automatically dial back timing to protect the motor if that happens. Then alls you'd see is a tad less performance and mpg. But I am not sure how Nissan does this. If I were you I'd compromise and use mid grade at least.




BigJim said:


> I got the rear catalytic converter yesterday along with the MAF sensor and gas cap. The front cat is supposed to be here today. It looks like the rear cat they sent is the wrong one. The flange only has two bolt holes and the one coming out of the front cat has 3 bolt holes. That may not be where the rear cat goes but since they cut the pipe and welded a straight pipe in, I have no clue how it actually goes in there. I think they may have cut the flange out along with the rear converter.
> 
> I have looked all over the internet trying to find how a stock exhaust for 2008 Sentra SE-R Spec V with a 2.5 200hp engine looks like. I have found diagrams of exhausts but the one under the car looks nothing like that.
> 
> I guess I need to contact Rockauto and see what they have to say about the cat. The strange thing is they only had one style rear cat and this is it.
> 
> Question, It states that I have to use premium unleaded, what will happen if I use regular octane gas? I am old school mechanic and not familiar with these newer cars. Will it mess up my converters?


----------



## de-nagorg

Octane is an anti-knock agent, added to HIGH COMPRESSION engine fuel. 

Using lower grade fuel, only hurts performance, and might allow knocking on acceleration. 

Which could damage your engine, So trying to cut back on the octane requirements is a judgement call on your part. 

You could try a mid-grade, to see how it performs, then the "regular" grade, and decide if you want to continue using the lower grade fuel. 

Go to the Nissan dealer, to ask if they have a diagram, in their parts department for the exhaust system. 

I used to get printouts from my local dealers, when I was confused on how parts were supposed to fit. 

Turned out that many times some "doofus", has rigged things that were not factory parts.


ED


----------



## BigJim

Ray, I do use the higher octane gas, I was hoping I could use the lesser cheaper gas. (not the real cheap places to buy gas) The low octane gas right now is $2.08 a gallon where the high octane is $3.00. That little car is eating gas like crazy right now, I just hope after getting all the new parts on it will improve the gas mileage. I won't use raceway or walmart gas, it causes too many problems for me.



de-nagorg said:


> Octane is an anti-knock agent, added to HIGH COMPRESSION engine fuel.
> 
> Using lower grade fuel, only hurts performance, and might allow knocking on acceleration.
> 
> Which could damage your engine, So trying to cut back on the octane requirements is a judgement call on your part.
> 
> You could try a mid-grade, to see how it performs, then the "regular" grade, and decide if you want to continue using the lower grade fuel.
> 
> Go to the Nissan dealer, to ask if they have a diagram, in their parts department for the exhaust system.
> 
> I used to get printouts from my local dealers, when I was confused on how parts were supposed to fit.
> 
> Turned out that many times some "doofus", has rigged things that were not factory parts.
> 
> 
> ED


 Dern Ed, that is cool, why didn't I think about going to the dealer and getting that information. That is why you make the big bucks. lol


I remember back in the OLD days, we could put a water injector on the car to cut back on the pinging. I didn't think about the knock sensor may kick in if it started pinging. This engine has a 10.5:1 compression ratio compaired to the standard 2.5 of 9.5:1. I wouldn't let the engine lug so heavy it would ping before downshifting anyway, just an old habit from the old days of high compression engines pinging in a strain. Back in the old days, 10:1 was stock compression ratio in most cars.

After all these years, I just looked up why the pinging would hurt an engine, I see now why it would.

1. High compression ratio: Due to high compression ratio, sometimes a secondary flame front is formed starting from piston head or any other hot spot if present, which collides with the flame front generated by the spark plug. In short due high compression ratio, preignition takes place leading to knocking issues. 
It can be resolved by reducing the compression ratio if a VCR(variable compression ratio) system is used.
2. Due to the presence of a secondary hot spot: Due to long hours of running the engine, unburnt/partially burnt carbon particles get deposited on the piston head, screw threads, regions around the valves, etc. These deposited carbon particles act as ignition source when the compressed fuel-air mixture is on the verge of burning (no spark, primary flame front not yet started). Thus before the actual start of the primary flame front, a secondary flame front starts travelling in an opposite direction, cause a collision and hence knocking. 
it can be resolved by cleaning the engine cylinder(s) and all the carbon deposits must be surely removed. 
3. Due to the overheating of the engine: If the heat of combustion chamber is not efficiently dissipated, then there is a significant rise in the temperatures of the combustion chamber parts such as piston head, valve heads, spark plug and threads of spark plugs screw and other similar parts. Due to this rise in temperature, these all overheated parts act as ignition sources and start multiple flame fronts, which collide and cause knocking.
It can be fixed by fixing/improving/modifying the engines cooling system and use coolent if possible.
4. Due to the low speed of engine: Due to low engine speed, there is a sufficient ignition lag, which gives enough time for a secondary flame front to get formed leading to the knocking.
If the speed of the engine is increased sufficiently, this issue can be resolved. Another alternative can be "advancing the spark timing". This will reduce the ignition lag and hence the knocking.
5. Knocking characteristics of the fuel: The fuel to be used in the engine should be tested for it knocking characteristics (octane rating) in a standard engine setup and a good quality antiknocking fuel should be used in order to get rid of this issue.


Ed this dealer we bought the car from keeps saying a little ole lady had the cats gutted and cut off and a straight pipe replaced. He is trying to cover his butt. What he isn't thinking about is, he sold the car knowing this. He is dragging his feet getting the title to the court house also. If he doesn't get on the stick I am going to turn him in.


----------



## Nealtw

Stay with the better gas, it doesn't take long to destroy a high compression engine


----------



## de-nagorg

Dern Ed, that is cool, why didn't I think about going to the dealer and getting that information. That is why you make the big bucks.

above quoted: Send all you can spare, and we'll be even. :vs_laugh:

I personally do NOT fix anything, until I have a clear title "in hand". 

I hope that you don't get ripped off, putting money and parts into this thing. 

Yes; get on their behind, like ugly on an ape, and get a clean title. 


ED 

PS, I once melted all the pistons into a puddle in the oil pan, running one too hot. 

So do use the best gas that you can get, without preignition (knock) happening.


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Dern Ed, that is cool, why didn't I think about going to the dealer and getting that information. That is why you make the big bucks.
> 
> above quoted: Send all you can spare, and we'll be even. :vs_laugh:
> 
> I personally do NOT fix anything, until I have a clear title "in hand".
> 
> I hope that you don't get ripped off, putting money and parts into this thing.
> 
> Yes; get on their behind, like ugly on an ape, and get a clean title.
> 
> 
> ED
> 
> PS, I once melted all the pistons into a puddle in the oil pan, running one too hot.
> 
> So do use the best gas that you can get, without preignition (knock) happening.


Ed, I am one of the easiest going guys you will find, but if he rips us off, he will never know I am an easy going guy. 

You talked me into it, I will use the high octane gas.


----------



## BigJim

Here is the latest skinny. I have put the converters on, new MAF sensor, new plugs, new gas cap and a new 02 sensor. It has cleared all codes, I double checked to see if there were any codes pending, nope clean as a whistle. Not one single thing has changed, the longer I drive the car the worse it gets, very little power. It does get better gas mileage believe it or not.

The next move is to recheck all ground wires and see if that helps. I am at my wits end, I don't have a clue where to go next. Any suggestions?

I have read online anything from relearning the throttle body, to regapping the plugs closer, to replacing the crankshaft and camshaft sensors also replacing the knock sensor. If it isn't spitting a code, I don't know where to go next.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: have you ran a compression test on this engine, it's beginning to sound like you have a dead cylinder. 

Dang, I hope not. 


ED


----------



## raylo32

This thread has been going awhile so I don't recall, did you pull the original plugs and read them? If you replaced them did you pull them again to see if one or more looked abnormal (wet with oil, fuel, etc)?



de-nagorg said:


> Jim: have you ran a compression test on this engine, it's beginning to sound like you have a dead cylinder.
> 
> Dang, I hope not.
> 
> 
> ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: have you ran a compression test on this engine, it's beginning to sound like you have a dead cylinder.
> 
> Dang, I hope not.
> 
> 
> ED


Ed, I haven't done a compression check yet. I don't think it is a dead cylinder, this little car will burn the tires off when it is cold and runs so smooth it is unreal. It only bogs and jerks some when it get warm, the warmer the worse the power loss. I am just baffled.

Ray, I haven't taken the plugs back out to check them out. The Champion plugs the dealer put in were clean as a whistle all looked like they were new and just put in.

On top of all this, the Pathfinder AC totally quit, with the compressor running it is blowing warm air. I believe the compressor is shot. I have a reading of 67 on the low side and 125 on the high side with outside temps of 94 with humidity over 40%, rpm at 1500.

I think there is an open valve in the compressor letting high pressure bleed back into the low pressure side. Remember the needle on the high pressure gauge was fluctuating like crazy a while back. The AC would work after being on a while and then it took longer and longer to cool at all, then finally no cool air. I did notice that the schrader valves are leaking ever so slightly, but never the less, they are leaking.

Is this ever going to end, we are broke now so things will have wait on the AC.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: humor me, check the compression, then get out your timing light, and check your timing . 

Yes I know that I am going "old school", on this, but you gotta start from the beginning to find this bug. 

Report back on the timing observation. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: humor me, check the compression, then get out your timing light, and check your timing .
> 
> Yes I know that I am going "old school", on this, but you gotta start from the beginning to find this bug.
> 
> Report back on the timing observation.
> 
> 
> ED


Bill, I will get out there in a little while and I will check the compression while I have the plugs out checking them. I don't have a timing light any more. I do still have a dwell tach though. lol I plan to take every ground wire loose, clean and reconnect today. I plan to pull all the electrical fittings and check to see if any are fouled or not connected well.

Just had a thought, I wonder if heated air will foul the MAF? The fresh air intake will not stay on for the MAF to draw fresh cooler air. It is drawing hot air from the engine compartment. I will fix that today as well. I know the MAF is heated but maybe too much heat is bad for it to operate properly. I guess I will find out.

One other thing I have noticed, the positive clamp on the battery isn't tight enough to keep the terminal from turning by hand, I will see about making that fitting tighter also. I don't see how that could be the problem but at this point I am grasping for straws.

Ed this car has a timing chain and I am told it lasts the life of the engine but I have sen chains wear out in the past so I don't see how this one can be any different. No way will I pull that cover to just check it though, that is a major project.

The title of this thread is a little wrong, the car doesn't just shimmy, bog down or jerk and jump at 3000 rpm as I thought, it does it at all rpm. I have noticed if I really pour the coal to it when it jumps and jerks, it will go on but it seems like the engine really doesn't like that. I don't want to mess around and foul out these new converters.

I appreciate all your help, I just don't know what to do next. I will let you know what I find today.


----------



## yardmullet

Jim,


Go to bottom of this link.
https://x.nissanhelp.com/forums/altima/9675-altima-jerky-acceleration.html

There is a list of service bulletins about the stumble. Seems tobe common.


Going thru some of the posts seems like Nissan doesn't have a remedy.
May be time to cut bait.


bg


----------



## raylo32

Interesting... this sure could be a CVT behaving badly and not an engine problem.



yardmullet said:


> Jim,
> 
> 
> Go to bottom of this link.
> https://x.nissanhelp.com/forums/altima/9675-altima-jerky-acceleration.html
> 
> There is a list of service bulletins about the stumble. Seems tobe common.
> 
> 
> Going thru some of the posts seems like Nissan doesn't have a remedy.
> May be time to cut bait.
> 
> 
> bg


----------



## Brainbucket

Hot air won't hurt the MAF as long as it's working properly but factory air was aimed at cold air and check air tubing between MAF and throttle body. Should be no openings. First, you need to get a fuel pressure gauge and tape the gauge to the windshield and drive it. Parts stores will rent ya one. Idling it should be 51lbs. If it goes down while driving, there's your problem. Fuel pump or fuel filter. You can take out fuel filter and blow through it. If not BOOM, there's your problem. If it's full of water or black crap comes out, change it. Secondly, exhaust restriction. Those cats that were cut out might have dumped into the muffler and only starts restricting when hot. An inferred temp tool can find this as the muffler should be the same temp from front to back of muffler. If red hot and cool spots are seen, cut the pipe of the front of muffler and drive it to see if it is different. But My gut feeling is you have a fuel pressure problem.:vs_cool:


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> Ed this car has a timing chain and I am told it lasts the life of the engine but I have sen chains wear out in the past so I don't see how this one can be any different. No way will I pull that cover to just check it though,
> 
> I appreciate all your help, I just don't know what to do next. I will let you know what I find today.


 That is what the timing light is for.

A "real " mechanic can use one to check the condition of the timing chain / belt, before removing the cover. 


BB has a good idea too, there are many, many factors to consider , that all rely on each other to properly operate any vehicle. 



ED


----------



## Brainbucket

Fuel filter is on the fuel pump assembly in the tank. I thought it was inline.:vs_cool:


----------



## raylo32

That's how my Tacoma is. My understanding that it is a fairly rough filter so would take some major crap to foul but I have never seen one of these to verify. I hate that setup. Seems that sooner or later you will need to pull the tank for a fuel issue and you might not even be able to tell if it is the pump, filter or both. On the other hand inline filters can be a point of leakage and fires.



Brainbucket said:


> Fuel filter is on the fuel pump assembly in the tank. I thought it was inline.:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Still raining, I hoped to get out there and do somethings today. I just thought about how the car is jerking. Remember the old big V8s, how the rubber in a motor mount completely came loose. Remember how the motor bounced up and down quickly? The vibration is almost like a completely wore out CV joint when accelerating. That is what this kinda feels like. 

It doesn't jerk forward like a clutch that got wet and is drying off, or anything like that, but when accelerating it is like being in a gear too high and it bogging really hard. I may have a mount broken somewhere, causing the vibration but that still doesn't tell me what the bogging down is.

Maybe the rain will stop in a little while.

BB I will try to rent a fuel pressure gauge and check that.


----------



## yardmullet

Jim,


Some of the discussion in the links I sent suggested dragging caliper(s) or cv joints.
In my experience either of those would pull.
bg


----------



## BigJim

yardmullet said:


> Jim,
> 
> 
> Some of the discussion in the links I sent suggested dragging caliper(s) or cv joints.
> In my experience either of those would pull.
> bg


Bill, when I clutch it, it coasts really well, no restrictions at all. Now for the CV joint. I noticed there was an awfully lot of grease slung around like an inside CV boot had burst. I checked and it looks like the boot is almost new. It is possible that the replaced the boot and just left the grease there. I will power wash that grease off and check it out.

Ray, sorry I over looked you post, the car has a 6 speed stick it doesn't have the CVT transmission.


----------



## yardmullet

A busted cv boot isn't gonna cause any kind of bind. 



I wonder what that rod thing is in the service bulletin. Could the trans be getting sideways putting stuff in a bind? What about the goofy mounts and close clearance?


Take it to GOOD alignment place or better yet a frame place get 'em to put it on their frame machine.

Maybe the unibody is bent. Once a unibody is bent it loses structural strength.


Put it on stands and run it slowly thru gears to see if there is any drag feeling.

And/or shift from 2 to 4 when on the road.


----------



## BigJim

yardmullet said:


> A busted cv boot isn't gonna cause any kind of bind.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what that rod thing is in the service bulletin. Could the trans be getting sideways putting stuff in a bind? What about the goofy mounts and close clearance?
> 
> 
> Take it to GOOD alignment place or better yet a frame place get 'em to put it on their frame machine.
> 
> Maybe the unibody is bent. Once a unibody is bent it loses structural strength.
> 
> 
> Put it on stands and run it slowly thru gears to see if there is any drag feeling.
> 
> And/or shift from 2 to 4 when on the road.


I agree a busted boot won't cause any problems other than grit getting in and wearing the joint out really fast. I do shift from 3rd into 6th gear and it runs better that way. Once getting 4th, 5th, or 6th gear it runs fine except when pulling some of the hills around here, I have to shift back to 4th most times as it just won't pull. It seems that from 1st through 3rd is the worst for power loss after it gets warm. When it gets past 3rd it doesn't seem to vibrate as much.


----------



## yardmullet

Was just ciphering on a cruise control switch that may impact trans



htttp://www.nisentra.com/p1564_ascd_steering_switch-593.html


bg


----------



## BigJim

Here is what I found out today. I did a compression check all 4 are 150 give or take a pound or so. I fixed the cold air intake so it would stay inplace. I checked as many electrical connections as I could find and made sure they were tight and clean. I checked and cleaned all ground wires I could find. I checked to see if the engine was raising up like a bad mount, and it isn't. It does have a slight bounce to it but nothing to get bent out of shape about. 

I regapped the plugs from 40 to 35 to see if that would help, I checked all the fuses I could find. I never did find the fuse for the fuel pump and injectors. All the plugs are burning clean. I haven't tried it out yet.

EDIT*** Just ran around the block, if it will just stay running like it is right now. It runs like a scalded dog, we will see if it stays that way.


----------



## yardmullet

I had a coworker named Bobby. He would ask if I would come out to their lake place to look at something that wasn't working right.


So I would fiddle with it and it usually ran better. He told me once "I watched you, but what did you do"? Show me." I'm like hell if I know,like the bat cave, I just kinda got there, and I don't know how to get back.



But it always troubles me when things fix themselves.


Got my fingers crossed for this one.
bg


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> Hot air won't hurt the MAF as long as it's working properly but factory air was aimed at cold air and check air tubing between MAF and throttle body. Should be no openings. First, you need to get a fuel pressure gauge and tape the gauge to the windshield and drive it. Parts stores will rent ya one. Idling it should be 51lbs. If it goes down while driving, there's your problem. Fuel pump or fuel filter. You can take out fuel filter and blow through it. If not BOOM, there's your problem. If it's full of water or black crap comes out, change it. Secondly, exhaust restriction. Those cats that were cut out might have dumped into the muffler and only starts restricting when hot. An inferred temp tool can find this as the muffler should be the same temp from front to back of muffler. If red hot and cool spots are seen, cut the pipe of the front of muffler and drive it to see if it is different. But My gut feeling is you have a fuel pressure problem.:vs_cool:


BB, the more I think about it the more I think you are right. The car sounds like one of the little buzz bombs at times at certain rpm, then at higher rpms but not under a load, it makes sounds like it is coming from the exhaust pipe. Then when just driving at a normal speed and not accelerating or decelerating it is so quite it is really hard to hear at all. 

If it isn't the muffler, IMHO, it has to be the fuel pump or filter. But it will really get up and go when cold.


----------



## de-nagorg

This talk about a fuel pressure problem, brought back a memory from decades ago. 

Had one where it ran great at slower speeds, but cutout, faltered and stalled at higher speeds.

Turned out that one of the rubber gas lines from either the tank to the steel line, or from the steel line to the engine, had developed a tear in the inner lining of the hose.

At lower speeds the tear would naturally lie flat and allow the fuel to flow.

But at higher volume flow the tear would flip down, and partially block the fuel flow, causing the car to falter, stagger , and slow way down, until the flapping tear relaxed and allowed full fuel flow again. 

A cheap fix was to replace both rubber gas lines. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

That would be great, if that is the problem. I haven't felt like doing anything today. Hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## de-nagorg

Take care of your health first. 

It is priority one, that way when feeling better you can 

" keep on , keeping on". 

ED


----------



## BigJim

I am still down with my dad burn back. This time with my back, it is all I can do to walk a little. I will be back on the car soon as I can and I will post what I find. Now if I could just understand my engine analyzer readout I would be in pretty good shape. I have looked all over the web trying to find what all that data means.

I hooked it up and drove the car for a good while to get a live reading. Not going to do me much good if I don't understand what it means. lol

Mean while I am using two of the twisted stick walking sticks I made.


----------



## BigJim

Today, I can walk again, so I went out and did another scan on the Sentra again. I found the manual for the analyzer and it looks like I have a downstream 02 sensor code pending so I ordered another 02 sensor. I am glad the downstream is about 1/3 the cost of the upstream 02 sensor. I sure hope this is all I will need for a while.


----------



## ron45

Is it worth it.?

Just saying.....

https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/2008/


----------



## BigJim

ron45 said:


> Is it worth it.?
> 
> Just saying.....
> 
> https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/2008/


Ron, it is worth it. This little car has some problems but it looks like it just drove off the showroom floor, seriously. New set of Pirelli performance tires, not a scratch anywhere, inside is perfect. Everything works perfect except for the problem of it bogging when warm. 

So far we have put new converters, MAF sensor, a gas cap and one 02 sensor. It also has front and rear disk brakes. It is a 6 speed stick 2.5 SE-R Spec V 200 hp engine. We gave about half of the first car in the link you posted. Even if at some point in the future I have to put another engine in it, it would still be worth it.


----------



## BigJim

BigJim said:


> Ron, it is worth it. This little car has some problems but it looks like it just drove off the showroom floor, seriously. New set of Pirelli performance tires, not a scratch anywhere, inside is perfect. Everything works perfect except for the problem of it bogging when warm.
> 
> So far we have put new converters, MAF sensor, a gas cap and one 02 sensor. It also has front and rear disk brakes. It is a 6 speed stick 2.5 SE-R Spec V 200 hp engine. We gave about half of the first car in the link you posted. Even if at some point in the future I have to put another engine in it, it would still be worth it.


I am about to change my mind about if it is worth it. The car had a pending code for another 02 sensor. I pulled the bottom sensor and sure enough, there was a wire cut in half. I put another sensor in and so help me Hannah, it is throwing another 02 sensor pending code. If that wire is cut again, I know where it is happening. The fans are so close they look to be what is cutting the wire. 

I will pull the fans again today and see if the wire is cut again, if it is I will modify the fans to clear that sensor. I am getting really poor gas mileage for this little car. It shows 14 mpg this morning and that is not going to get it, when I have to use the premium gas at $3 a gal when regular here is $2.05.

Another concern has popped up. My wife asked me this morning if I heard a certain sound. The sound I thought I have heard was the exhaust rumbling. I turned my hearing aids wide open and the rumbling sounds like a rod bearing. Man that is all I need, having to rebuild this engine or put another one in is not something I want to do. The sound only happens when the engine is running at a no load at all, sorta just floating.


----------



## BigJim

I forgot something, yesterday when I took the fans out to replace the 02 sensor. The front bumper is plastic, it fastens to the rail across the top in front of the radiator. Now get this, I push on that flap and the blame horn blows, it did it twice so I didn't touch it again, I will see if it does it today. lol


----------



## Nealtw

In the 40s power went to the horn first and you made the connection to ground at the steering wheel.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> In the 40s power went to the horn first and you made the connection to ground at the steering wheel.


Hmmm, now ya got me thinking. The thing is, it was plastic, I pushed against metal. There was nothing under there but the hold down for the radiator. Now I have got to go out there and try again. lol


----------



## raylo32

Ghost in the machine?



BigJim said:


> Hmmm, now ya got me thinking. The thing is, it was plastic, I pushed against metal. There was nothing under there but the hold down for the radiator. Now I have got to go out there and try again. lol


----------



## Nealtw

raylo32 said:


> Ghost in the machine?


The car lets you know when you have hit something.


----------



## BigJim

I went back out there and tried it again, it didn't do it this time.

This coming week I hope to cut the muffler off the car and see if it is stopped up. I just can't figure why the car bogs down when warmed up and it is using way more gas than it should. That is all I need for the cats to stop up again.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim, the horn honking, could be due to a pinched wire, in the horn system, making contact with another in the system. 

I had a couple of 1970 fords with a similar horn problem, one was a Mustang with the Rim Blow feature, that is where the entire inner rim of the steering wheel is a horn switch. 

After a few years of age, this rubber rim, would develop a shorted pressure point and blow the horn all by itself.

The other a 70 Galaxy had a similar pressure switch in the steering wheel console, and would start blowing the horn at night when it contracted enough to cause the strips to connect. 

Both were unplugged and that remedied that problem. 

Your car might have similar switching, and your pressing on the fan shroud, and grill, was just a coincidence. 

Trace the wiring from the horn relay, to the horn, and see if there is any bare spots in it, to maybe have been contacting each other.


There should be a way to check those mufflers, without cutting them out, is there a way to install a Back pressure meter? Too high of a back pressure will indicate that there is an obstruction somewhere.

Has any of the exhaust pipe been crushed, by running over a rock, or other debris in the road?


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim, the horn honking, could be due to a pinched wire, in the horn system, making contact with another in the system.
> 
> I had a couple of 1970 fords with a similar horn problem, one was a Mustang with the Rim Blow feature, that is where the entire inner rim of the steering wheel is a horn switch.
> 
> After a few years of age, this rubber rim, would develop a shorted pressure point and blow the horn all by itself.
> 
> The other a 70 Galaxy had a similar pressure switch in the steering wheel console, and would start blowing the horn at night when it contracted enough to cause the strips to connect.
> 
> Both were unplugged and that remedied that problem.
> 
> Your car might have similar switching, and your pressing on the fan shroud, and grill, was just a coincidence.
> 
> Trace the wiring from the horn relay, to the horn, and see if there is any bare spots in it, to maybe have been contacting each other.
> 
> 
> There should be a way to check those mufflers, without cutting them out, is there a way to install a Back pressure meter? Too high of a back pressure will indicate that there is an obstruction somewhere.
> 
> Has any of the exhaust pipe been crushed, by running over a rock, or other debris in the road?
> 
> 
> ED


Ed, there is no wiring under that flap but there is where I had just put the fans back in. Those fans had to have been replaced as they did not fit right, it was a real struggle to get them back in the slots at the bottom where the tabs are. I modified them and they now fit good. I also cut about 1/2 inch off where the fans were so very close to the bottom 02 sensor, it was crazy close.

The more I think about the muffler being clogged some the more I think BrainBucket is right. Here is my thinking: The 2.5 Nissan engine had a real problem with the per-cat set up. The catalytic converter at the exhaust manifold is way to close to the exhaust ports on the engine. Nissan made an inferior catalyst that crumbled and got sucked back into the engine and destroyed an awful lot of Altimas from 2003-2007 or 8. That is the main reason an Altima is so very cheap that was made in those years.

Now with the cats messed up big time on this car, the dealer knew that about the pre-cat problem. I figure they thought the cats alone were clogged bad enough that they were causing the little car to bog down when it got to full operating temps. They completely gutted the front cats and it didn't help, so they cut the rear cat and put a pipe in the place of the rear one. When they found out that didn't solve the problem they sold the little car cheap and there is where I came in. I figure the muffler is clogged like BrainBucket said.

When I drove the car, it was cool and ran perfect, great oil pressure and all. I didn't drive it far enough to let it warm completely when I bought it. So before I got home with the car, it was bogging really bad. Also the oil pressure had dropped really low so I may have way more problems than I want to admit. 

I keep telling myself that the sending unit is bad, and man do I hope it is. The inside of the engine is spotless and the oil is clear as if it had just been put in. No burned smell at all. The oil pressure runs about 15 pounds when it warms up and driving, but when fully warm at idle it runs about 5 pounds. When cold the oil pressure is about 35-40 pounds running and about 20-25 at idle. There is no knocking sound or anything like that, but that don't mean the lower end isn't wore out. I am pulling 150 pounds each cylinder on compression.

I am hoping the engine doesn't have to be snatch out and rebuild or put another one in. The car would still be worth it, for what we gave for it, because of the perfect shape it is in cosmetically. The down side is I will be 76 here pretty soon and my back is almost gone, I just don't know if there is another engine rebuild in me or not.


----------



## Nealtw

Oil pressure sending unit seems to be problem with that car and it can effect the computer too.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> Oil pressure sending unit seems to be problem with that car and it can effect the computer too.


Thanks Neal, looks like another order from RockAuto. Man they are getting rich off me. lol Just ordered new head light last night.


----------



## BigJim

BigJim said:


> I keep telling myself that the sending unit is bad, and man do I hope it is. The inside of the engine is spotless and the oil is clear as if it had just been put in. No burned smell at all. The oil pressure runs about 15 pounds when it warms up and driving, but when fully warm at idle it runs about 5 pounds. When cold the oil pressure is about 35-40 pounds running and about 20-25 at idle. There is no knocking sound or anything like that, but that don't mean the lower end isn't wore out. I am pulling 150 pounds each cylinder on compression.


Good grief, I am quoting myself, hey I am old what do you expect. lol

I need to correct the oil pressure I stated above. When the car is cold the oil pressure is 70 pounds when I first start driving. The pressure drops to about 20-25 pounds when warm and driving. At idle it is around 5 to seven pounds when fully warm. I am going to order a new sending unit and see if that has any affect on it. The car has an on dash oil gauge instead of an oil light.

Believe it or not, this car has an on dash g force gauge. I couldn't figure out what it was until I read in the manual. It actually measures the g force when taking off fast. How stupid is that. lol


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Good grief, I am quoting myself, hey I am old what do you expect. lol
> 
> I need to correct the oil pressure I stated above. When the car is cold the oil pressure is 70 pounds when I first start driving. The pressure drops to about 20-25 pounds when warm and driving. At idle it is around 5 to seven pounds when fully warm. I am going to order a new sending unit and see if that has any affect on it. The car has an on dash oil gauge instead of an oil light.
> 
> Believe it or not, this car has an on dash g force gauge. I couldn't figure out what it was until I read in the manual. It actually measures the g force when taking off fast. How stupid is that. lol


 You have to order those optional G suits.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: as you know, a falling oil pressure, is caused by only a few things.

Let's hope that a new sensor, or a bad wire, is the cause.

Because any other cause, and it's time for you to "return to sender". 

At least here we have a lemon law, where you can return a junker to the dealer, within a set amount of time, and get a full refund.

ED


----------



## raylo32

G-force gauges are primarily for cornering not acceleration. My vette has that in it's PDR (perf data recorder) where it will overlay cornering g-forces and other parameters onto the video. Guys that take their cars to the road race track use that feature to figure out how they are doing and to make adjustments.

Really sorry to hear all the problems you are having with what should be a fun little car.



BigJim said:


> Believe it or not, this car has an on dash g force gauge. I couldn't figure out what it was until I read in the manual. It actually measures the g force when taking off fast. How stupid is that. lol


----------



## raylo32

This is curious. In my experience if you have a rod or main bearing failure oil pressure doesn't just drop, it goes to zero. So hopefully it isn't that and it is something fixable.



de-nagorg said:


> Jim: as you know, a falling oil pressure, is caused by only a few things.
> 
> Let's hope that a new sensor, or a bad wire, is the cause.
> 
> Because any other cause, and it's time for you to "return to sender".
> 
> At least here we have a lemon law, where you can return a junker to the dealer, within a set amount of time, and get a full refund.
> 
> ED


----------



## de-nagorg

raylo32 said:


> This is curious. In my experience if you have a rod or main bearing failure oil pressure doesn't just drop, it goes to zero. So hopefully it isn't that and it is something fixable.


When they are badly WORN, the pressure is better before the oil has a chance to warm, and thin just a bit. 

Worn, is near failure, so it will still run a little while longer, but not much. 

My old "*******" step-father, would replace the oil with straight STP, and drive it another 10,000 miles that way. 


ED


----------



## raylo32

LOL! Yes, I used to add SOME STP to old worn out motors. Straight STP is crazy!



de-nagorg said:


> When they are badly WORN, the pressure is better before the oil has a chance to warm, and thin just a bit.
> 
> Worn, is near failure, so it will still run a little while longer, but not much.
> 
> My old "*******" step-father, would replace the oil with straight STP, and drive it another 10,000 miles that way.
> 
> 
> ED


----------



## de-nagorg

raylo32 said:


> LOL! Yes, I used to add SOME STP to old worn out motors. Straight STP is crazy!


He used to put the STP can in a pot of HOT water, to make the stuff flow better, before setting it upside down on the engine , to get every drop.

Then later after the engine quit, it would take HOURS, to drain the oil pan, to start the R&R process. :vs_mad:


ED


----------



## raylo32

I'm surprised he didn't take a torch to the oil pan and block! ;-)



de-nagorg said:


> He used to put the STP can in a pot of HOT water, to make the stuff flow better, before setting it upside down on the engine , to get every drop.
> 
> Then later after the engine quit, it would take HOURS, to drain the oil pan, to start the R&R process. :vs_mad:
> 
> 
> ED


----------



## BigJim

This was just one of those days I really didn't feel like doing much of anything. So I stayed on the internet watching videos of how to read an engine analyzer/scanner. I found the fuel trim explanation very interesting. I also found that this engine is set up like a V engine because it has a split exhaust manifold thus bank 1 and bank 2. 

One thing I found out is, I can forget about the fuel pump or fuel filter being at fault because I am getting two separate readings on the LONGFT1 LONGFT2 such as 6.3% on the #1 and 0.8% on #2. If the fuel pump was weak or the filter was at fault, both #1 and #2 would be reading the same.

As the video further explained that since the SHRTFT1 had a 0.0% reading and the LONGFT1 had 8.6% at idle that there might be a vacuum leak somewhere to cause the SHRTFT1 to cause a lean reading. It has been this way so long the LONGFT1 the ECM has learned this and since the 02 sensors have returned to normal it is lean and the EMC is pumping more gas through the engine to compensate for the extra air that is induced by a vacuum leak.

Anyway, I am going to check this out with my propane torch. I will put some propane through the air intake to see what changes in the SHRTFT1 bank. I will also move the propane around the engine until I get a spike in my readings, this is where the leak will be...I hope. I hope I don't have any live sparks anywhere. lol

Back to the videos tomorrow... after I see what I can find out on the car.


----------



## de-nagorg

Please do that outside. You don't want a "gas" leak explosion indoors, we had a house in town today explode, and wreck the neighbors homes too.

A quick check for live sparks, is to start the car after dark, raise the hood, if there are any, it will look like a fireworks show under there after dark. :biggrin2:

Seen it many times. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Please do that outside. You don't want a "gas" leak explosion indoors, we had a house in town today explode, and wreck the neighbors homes too.
> 
> A quick check for live sparks, is to start the car after dark, raise the hood, if there are any, it will look like a fireworks show under there after dark. :biggrin2:
> 
> Seen it many times.
> 
> 
> ED


I don't have a way to bring the car inside anyway so I will be safe there. I hate doing that because I did set one car on fire years back like that. I had a big box of baking soda handy so it didn't do any damage. I am really skittish about doing that but I don't know of any other way.


----------



## de-nagorg

Starter fluid, is safer, but can still be dangerous. 

Easier controlled, spray sparingly around the vacuum lines, using the little straw included on a WD40 can. and when the engine REVS , you have found a leak, now you visually inspect the lines well, to find a split one.

Replace it, run the test again, until you get them all. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Starter fluid, is safer, but can still be dangerous.
> 
> Easier controlled, spray sparingly around the vacuum lines, using the little straw included on a WD40 can. and when the engine REVS , you have found a leak, now you visually inspect the lines well, to find a split one.
> 
> Replace it, run the test again, until you get them all.
> 
> ED


Man, that is the reason you make the big bucks, I never thought about that little straw, that would sure narrow it down a bit. Thanks buddy, I do appreciate that a lot. I will do just that. I will let you know how it goes.

It is amazing how mechanics have changed from the 60s to now. All that junk on an engine is just not necessary IMHO. Looking at today's cars and the 60's cars, kinda makes you wonder how in the world did those primitive things ran without all this crap they have now days. Heck, just look at the old Model T's and A's, how did they run without all this garbage on their engines back then. Sure makes today's auto makers look stupid if you ask me.

I use to hate with a passion to have to set the points and adjust the carbs, but man I would go back to that in an instant over all this crap today. They are going to mess around and come up with two sensors that will not work without the other and they are going to cancel each other out and render the engine useless. 

If it has changed this much since the 6o's can you imagine in the next 50 years. We won't be around to see it but I feel for who ever is.


----------



## de-nagorg

Does anyone else realize that those cars in the late 50's-60's got just as good of mileage, and did not pollute, just like the modern ones with all the added garbage?

That is, if the owner kept them tuned correctly. 

These Computers are supposed to adjust the tuning to accommodate for a lack of maintenance. by the modern lazy owners. 

I still have my own Point File, and plug gapping set. Timing light, Dwell meter, and vacuum gauge.

All handy tuning tools.


ED


----------



## raylo32

Man, we have different memories. I LOVE all the new stuff. My first car was a 1966 Mustang with the 200 CID straight 6 with 1-barrel carb and auto trans. It was dog slow... zero to 60 in maybe 9 or 10 seconds... and perfectly tuned it got 17 highway mpg on a good day. Today my Vette does zero to 60 in about 3.5 seconds and gets 30 MPG highway.

That old stuff was way easier to work on, which was a good thing, because it needed to be worked on a lot.



de-nagorg said:


> Does anyone else realize that those cars in the late 50's-60's got just as good of mileage, and did not pollute, just like the modern ones with all the added garbage?
> 
> That is, if the owner kept them tuned correctly.
> 
> These Computers are supposed to adjust the tuning to accommodate for a lack of maintenance. by the modern lazy owners.
> 
> I still have my own Point File, and plug gapping set. Timing light, Dwell meter, and vacuum gauge.
> 
> All handy tuning tools.
> 
> 
> ED


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Man, we have different memories. I LOVE all the new stuff. My first car was a 1966 Mustang with the 200 CID straight 6 with 1-barrel carb and auto trans. It was dog slow... zero to 60 in maybe 9 or 10 seconds... and perfectly tuned it got 17 highway mpg on a good day. Today my Vette does zero to 60 in about 3.5 seconds and gets 30 MPG highway.
> 
> That old stuff was way easier to work on, which was a good thing, because it needed to be worked on a lot.


I agree that the big block cars had to be worked on a lot but the small block engines hardly ever. At least back then if you had a problem it was extremely easy to pin point, and work on, not these things now days. I am starting to hate our Sentra.


----------



## raylo32

Agree... if you get a bad problem or lemon it can be a bear to figure out and put right. But by and large most modern vehicles are set it and forget it reliable, including the electronics.

We had a great 1964 Impala convertible with the 327 small block w/4-barrel Rochester. Fantastic car except for the Powerglide. Man, I'd kill to have that car and/or my old Mustang back.



BigJim said:


> I agree that the big block cars had to be worked on a lot but the small block engines hardly ever. At least back then if you had a problem it was extremely easy to pin point, and work on, not these things now days. I am starting to hate our Sentra.


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Agree... if you get a bad problem or lemon it can be a bear to figure out and put right. But by and large most modern vehicles are set it and forget it reliable, including the electronics.
> 
> We had a great 1964 Impala convertible with the 327 small block w/4-barrel Rochester. Fantastic car except for the Powerglide. Man, I'd kill to have that car and/or my old Mustang back.


I had mostly Chevys in the 60s and had some pretty mean engines. The one car I wish I had back more than any was the 71 Pontiac Formula Firebird, that was one mean machine.

I went out today and sprayed starter fluid everywhere there might be a vacuum leak, not a thing, I didn't find any leaks at all. So tomorrow I will get in on the injectors and see what they look like. I am still not kicking any codes out.


----------



## Brainbucket

The best and safest way to find a vacuum leak is with a smoke machine. I use to do it with carb cleaner but that caused a fire. 8 isn't that bad for long term fuel trim. You need to drive the car when it's repaired and running good before you look at fuel trim. A restricted exhaust will make trim readings no good. Leave the injectors alone for now. Did you check the muffler? You don't have to cut it off. Just cut a piece out of the pipe before muffler facing down and drive and see if that remedies the problem. We have to find the root problem before going after vacuum leaks and other stuff. :vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Thanks BB, I was going to remove the injectors today but man that is a pain to say the least. I can find where the fuse is to the fuel pump so I didn't do anything today but clean a set of injectors I took off another car. I tested them and they all read the same ohms so when I do need to swap them out I got a set.

I just haven't have the umpf to get back under the car but I will for sure remove the pipe going to the muffler if nothing else, at least I can put a sleeve back on it to hook it back up. That little sucker is going to be some kinda loud. lol I will let you know how it goes. 

I am a little more than concerned about my oil pressure. Yesterday the oil pressure dropped so low the light came on. This car has both an idiot light and a gauge, the gauge was dead zero when the light came on at idle. When I brought the rpms up a little the pressure came up also. I wish I could do a plasti gauge on the bearings and see what the clearance is. 

Just in case I have to snatch this engine, I will rebuild it, another 2.5 Spec V 200 hp engine is wayyyyy out of my range. I would need to look around town and see how much a crankshaft kit would run. No way to drop the crank from below, I would never get the flywheel off. Hmmm just had a thought, I could get a regular 2.5 engine and still be ok, as mater fact I could use regular gas then, there is only 30 hp difference. OK, I am through thinking out loud. lol


----------



## BigJim

Today I ruled out an exhaust leak at the exhaust manifold as I replaced the gasket. Can you believe the price of a gasket now days? Car still does the same thing. So Monday, Lord willing, I will cut the exhaust pipe in front of the muffler and run it around trying to stay away from the cops. lol

While I didn't find a vacuum leak with the starter fluid, it still acts like it has one. That combined with the muffler problem and that would sure cut the power down. I plan to make my own smoke machine and see if I can find a vacuum leak that way.

These readings, on the 02 sensor voltage is the voltage in the photo mv or just volts. If just volts that is way way too high, they should never be above .900 v nor lower than .100v The photo is the engine running at 2500 rpm already warmed up.

The next photo is of the shrft1 and 2 @ 2500 rpm.
The last photo is @ idle


----------



## ron45

A little advice my Father gave me when I was young.

People trade/sell cars for a reason.

If the car looks great it might run like ****

If it looks like **** it might run great.

But it's highly doubtful that you'll get it runs great, it looks great on your budget......


----------



## de-nagorg

ron45 said:


> A little advice my Father gave me when I was young.
> 
> People trade/sell cars for a reason.
> 
> If the car looks great it might run like ****
> 
> If it looks like **** it might run great.
> 
> But it's highly doubtful that you'll get it runs great, it looks great on your budget......


Wise advice. 

I have had great luck once though. 

4 years ago, I was in need of a newer vehicle, and searched and looked for months, and finally found a great looking a great running used car. 

It is a retired U.S. MARSHALS prisoner transport S U V. 

The fellow that I purchased it from, was a security officer at a federal prison, and had bought it in their annual trade in program to keep the fleet new. 

He had bought it to replace his wife's Isuzu Rodeo. 

She drove the Explorer one time, and ordered him to get rid of that tank, it's too big. 

So I got a 5 year old vehicle with less than 40,000 miles on it, that had been kept in excellent condition, for half the cost of very similar ones at dealerships. 

Deals are out there, it takes patience, and LUCK.

I suggested that Jim, get a CARFAX report on his purchase, but have never heard if he did. 

The CARFAX on mine clued me in on it's life, and I asked the previous owner about it, is why I know where and what mine did before I bought it.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Wise advice.
> 
> I have had great luck once though.
> 
> 4 years ago, I was in need of a newer vehicle, and searched and looked for months, and finally found a great looking a great running used car.
> 
> It is a retired U.S. MARSHALS prisoner transport S U V.
> 
> The fellow that I purchased it from, was a security officer at a federal prison, and had bought it in their annual trade in program to keep the fleet new.
> 
> He had bought it to replace his wife's Isuzu Rodeo.
> 
> She drove the Explorer one time, and ordered him to get rid of that tank, it's too big.
> 
> So I got a 5 year old vehicle with less than 40,000 miles on it, that had been kept in excellent condition, for half the cost of very similar ones at dealerships.
> 
> Deals are out there, it takes patience, and LUCK.
> 
> I suggested that Jim, get a CARFAX report on his purchase, but have never heard if he did.
> 
> The CARFAX on mine clued me in on it's life, and I asked the previous owner about it, is why I know where and what mine did before I bought it.
> 
> 
> ED


Ron, your dad was spot on, he got it totally right. This car looks like it just drove off the showroom floor...without the engine. lol We did do a VIN look up and there wasn't much there. The dealer lied from word go. My wife and I are on a fixed income so we were very limited in what we could afford. I sold our pontoon boat to get the Pathfinder, I sold our camper to get the pontoon, I sold the teardrop camper I built to buy the camper. lol

We bought the Sentra from the money we got from the truck hitting and totaling our outer in perfect condition car. lol


----------



## BigJim

I am beginning to hate this car, dad blame son of a gun. My back has not allowed me to get back under the car to check out the muffler so in the meanwhile I am trying to find out how in the dickens to get the blame fuel injectors out of this car. It looks like the intake plenum will have to come out first. The catch is it is way too close to the fire wall to get your hand past it let alone your arm. 

I have done a lot of searching and have found the Nissan 2.5 engine changed a lot from 2006 to 2007 and up. Any 2.5 below 2007 will not fit this car. I did find one good thing, the 2007 and up does not have a power valve where the blame screws would fall out and get sucked into the engine, that is a big plus. This 2.5 also has a composite intake not a cast aluminum like the 2006 and older.

I looked at the manufactures manual, it does show how to remove the intake and fuel rail... with the dern engine sitting on the floor. There is no way I can see to get in there and get it off still in the car. I can tall you this, if I pull that sucker, you can bet I will totally rebuild it while it is out.


----------



## raylo32

Man, Jim you are more persistent than I... and I'm a stubborn persistent SOB myself!


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Man, Jim you are more persistent than I... and I'm a stubborn persistent SOB myself!


I usually don't give up until I finish but man this one is sure tempting. There has got to be an answer and I will find it if I have to totally put another engine in it. lol on a fixed income, and things have to happen. Most times it is too much month at the end of the money. lol


----------



## BigJim

Great gobs of goose grease, I did find out how to get the fuel injectors out and man what a j o b. 6 hours and I am wore out. I found out there is a cowl covering the windshield wiper motor that comes off. But first you have to take the plastic seal that is on top of it. To get that off, the windshield wiper arms have to come off and the washer tube disconnected. And that was so I could get behind the intake to take it off.

A bunch of hoses and electrical connectors unhooked. The top motor mount and adapter that goes between the mount and the engine. For some reason, who ever worked on this engine last put spacers under the motor mount to body, then had to put spacers between the motor and where the mount bolts to the motor. 

That is crazy, why not just leave all the spacers out and put it back like it was originally. I guess I will see when I put it back together why they did that.

I had to pull the intake, than a bracket that went under the intake. Pulled the fuel rail. Unhooked the injectors and pulled them out. That was not a fun job, and putting it back together is going to be really harder.

I did find that this is not direct fuel injected. It is indirect injected which I am sooooooo glad. Direct injectors spray fuel straight into the cylinders. The down side to that is carbon builds up on top of your valves, if you don't install an oil catch can between the PVC valve and the intake manifold. 

Since this is indirect injected, the gas sprays on top of the intake valves and keeps the carbon from building up. That makes me a happy camper. The direct injected injectors are exposed to all the exploded gases inside the cylinder and crap builds up on them much faster than indirect injectors. Oh well, tomorrow I will clean and check these injectors to see if I put them back or not. I sure don't want to go through all this again. lol

Oh by the way, I called for the price of the intake gasket today, $50.00. I told them nope, I can get that gasket from Rockauto for $18.42. Man, I can see making a profit but for crying out loud. Before I told him it was the same brand name gasket, he said "you get what you pay for" I said, sometimes not.

Man I hope this is the problem with the stumbling, this is getting old.


----------



## Bigplanz

BigJim said:


> Great gobs of goose grease, I did find out how to get the fuel injectors out and man what a j o b. 6 hours and I am wore out. I found out there is a cowl covering the windshield wiper motor that comes off. But first you have to take the plastic seal that is on top of it. To get that off, the windshield wiper arms have to come off and the washer tube disconnected. And that was so I could get behind the intake to take it off.
> 
> A bunch of hoses and electrical connectors unhooked. The top motor mount and adapter that goes between the mount and the engine. For some reason, who ever worked on this engine last put spacers under the motor mount to body, then had to put spacers between the motor and where the mount bolts to the motor.
> 
> That is crazy, why not just leave all the spacers out and put it back like it was originally. I guess I will see when I put it back together why they did that.
> 
> I had to pull the intake, than a bracket that went under the intake. Pulled the fuel rail. Unhooked the injectors and pulled them out. That was not a fun job, and putting it back together is going to be really harder.
> 
> I did find that this is not direct fuel injected. It is indirect injected which I am sooooooo glad. Direct injectors spray fuel straight into the cylinders. The down side to that is carbon builds up on top of your valves, if you don't install an oil catch can between the PVC valve and the intake manifold.
> 
> Since this is indirect injected, the gas sprays on top of the intake valves and keeps the carbon from building up. That makes me a happy camper. The direct injected injectors are exposed to all the exploded gases inside the cylinder and crap builds up on them much faster than indirect injectors. Oh well, tomorrow I will clean and check these injectors to see if I put them back or not. I sure don't want to go through all this again. lol
> 
> Oh by the way, I called for the price of the intake gasket today, $50.00. I told them nope, I can get that gasket from Rockauto for $18.42. Man, I can see making a profit but for crying out loud. Before I told him it was the same brand name gasket, he said "you get what you pay for" I said, sometimes not.
> 
> Man I hope this is the problem with the stumbling, this is getting old.


Should of told him the Rockauto part is the same as his, and "if you shop around, it can keep you from being ripped off."

Or, even better, show him the exact same online part as his and ask him if he will price match. Eff that guy.


----------



## BigJim

Bigplanz said:


> Should of told him the Rockauto part is the same as his, and "if you shop around, it can keep you from being ripped off."
> 
> Or, even better, show him the exact same online part as his and ask him if he will price match. Eff that guy.


I did go down there and showed him a photo on my phone and he said he could come down to $39.99 and that was with my vet discount. One other time he did match the rockauto price on an 02 sensor. His price was $224.99, Rockauto $69.79 same Denso 02 sensor. He did come down to the price for the sensor and shipping. That just tells me they have one heck of a mark up. Someone is making a killing. 

I will say this though, some of Rockauto parts are not very good. I would not trust a ball joint that costs $3. Some of their prices are just way way too cheap and that does bother me. But brand names like Bosch, NGK and others that are the same part, I will buy them from Rockauto, I can wait 4 or 5 days for that kind of money.

What blows me away is some of the more popular auto parts stores are even higher than these people are. Some auto part places here sell a qt of oil for $7, not the synthetic but regular 10W 30 oil. I can go down to Ace Hardware and get the same oil for $3. I could go on like $16.89 for one spark plug but I will just let it rest there.


----------



## raylo32

Something at Rock Auto must have changed. A couple weeks ago I worked up an order for some rear drum brake stuff for my truck, all in stock. Estimated delivery date was like 10 days out. I used to get stuff in a couple of days from them. Does RA now ship stuff via pony express or what? I didn't place the order since I was to be out of town in that time frame.


----------



## Bigplanz

Buy the good stuff-motorcraft, denso, acdelco-from RA. Leave the "economy" section alone.

If I buy local, I go to NAPA.


----------



## BigJim

raylo32 said:


> Something at Rock Auto must have changed. A couple weeks ago I worked up an order for some rear drum brake stuff for my truck, all in stock. Estimated delivery date was like 10 days out. I used to get stuff in a couple of days from them. Does RA now ship stuff via pony express or what? I didn't place the order since I was to be out of town in that time frame.


Ray, I have noticed they are slower on delivery now. They use to say it would be 4 days, then a couple days later it was here.


----------



## de-nagorg

I often find OEM Ford parts on e-bay, at great prices. 

I got a case of motorcraft oil filters for the same price that I was quoted at my local dealership for one. 

I realized later that the sale was from a Louisiana place that had leftover inventory, that was supposedly damaged in Katrina, but my filters are perfect, no watermarks on any boxes. 

So maybe they were selling them after receiving insurance payments, and were supposed to have scrapped them, I don't know, just that I am pleased to have scored a great deal on them. 

As for steering parts, do be careful, that you get quality ones, I too do not trust the knockoff stuff sold too cheap.


ED


----------



## BigJim

Oh my stars, I am bushed. I got the injectors cleaned today and installed new O rings. I got the cart before the horse putting the injectors back in. I got them, the fuel rail back on and the intake. I'll be a son of a gun if I didn't forget to put the blame clips on the top of the injectors. I got the two end ones on but the two middle ones were a no go.

I had to pull the intake, fuel rail and injectors back out just because of those two clips. Man I hate doing something over like that.

Another couple hours I will have it all back together...so that means 4 or 5 more hours. lol If this isn't what the problem is, that muffler is coming off and I will just replace it. I can not think of anything else other than the knock sensor. If it is the knock sensor I will mount it on the firewall and ground that thing so it won't pick up any more noise if that is the problem. This just don't want to end.


----------



## BigJim

Well I was right it was more like 6 hours to get it all back together. What slowed me down an awful lot was that blame top motor mount with the spacers everywhere. I bolted it back to the motor like it was supposed to be. What gave me fits was where it was bolted to the frame. It set 1/2 from the frame and if bolted down tight it would have broken the mount. 

The holes where the bolts went were way too big (see photo below). I tried to find spacers that I could fit in the hole and take up the excess space. I did a little rigging and got it bolted in but it can sure be felt from the vibrations of the motor. I think some kind of rubber goes in there to cut down the vibration.

After all was said and done, I fired it up and it would not get past an idle. I rean a scan and found I forgot the plug in the throttle body. It runs great now. No stumbling but there is a slight power loss after it gets warm.

I am happy with the gas millage now, it is getting 20.9 mpg and specs say it supposed to get 21 city so I am happy. I will still go ahead and replace the muffler as it has a rusty spot on it and it is a matter of time before it is gone anyway.

I am one happy camper.

I am still going to put the oil catch can on this one to keep the blow by from getting sucked back into the engine. It is sucking oily sludgy stuff back into the intake so the catch can will solve that. 

After I got half way through, our grandson told me they can clean the injectors while they are still in the car. The car runs off the cleaner and shuts off when the can is empty. If that works, that sure would have saved tons of time. Have any of you tried it?


----------



## de-nagorg

That is good news, the power loss after warmup, might be a slightly constricted exhaust, you said that you are replacing the muffler, good deal. 

The dealership should have a schematic, for how the engine mount was built, I have said it before, but it bears repeating. 

The dealership parts department can be your best friend in researching this kind of stuff. 

As with everything in life if it is worth it to do it right, do it. 

Do it right and be done with it, do it "half baked", and do it over and over. 

I prefer once and done myself.


I forgot, as for cleaning injectors, I just add a bottle of cleaner to the fuel tank every 6000 miles or so, always seems to keep the crud out for me. 

And that oily crud from the blow-by, is supposed to have a foam filter to stop the crud before it gets sucked back in, just clean the foam once in awhile. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

I forgot to post the photo of the mount to the frame, see how much larger the hole is that the bolt?


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> I forgot to post the photo of the mount to the frame, see how much larger the hole is that the bolt?


That's the wrong bolt.

Holes like that are supposed to have "shoulder bolts", in them. 

The head of the bolt has a shoulder on it to be inserted into the larger hole in the mount to prevent the assembly from slipping around. 

Again consult a dealership for the schematics, and get the proper bolts. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> That's the wrong bolt.
> 
> Holes like that are supposed to have "shoulder bolts", in them.
> 
> The head of the bolt has a shoulder on it to be inserted into the larger hole in the mount to prevent the assembly from slipping around.
> 
> Again consult a dealership for the schematics, and get the proper bolts.
> 
> 
> ED


Ed I was thinking the other way around, I was thinking there was a spacer with a lip that fit in the hole and the bolt went through that. I just can't remember to look at the dealer parts blow up, thanks for the reminder.

Well today the little car started to stumble all over again, so back to square one. That muffler is coming off and a new one installed, if not that then the knock sensor if not that, I will drive the blame thing til the engine is toast.


----------



## BigJim

I have looked for the last 1 3/4 hours trying to find something about the bolts and stuff with that mount, still haven't found anything. I give up, I'm going to bed.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> I forgot to post the photo of the mount to the frame, see how much larger the hole is that the bolt?


 There seems to be an impression of where there was a washer or something.
I haven't been following, what part are we looking at?


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> There seems to be an impression of where there was a washer or something.
> I haven't been following, what part are we looking at?


Neal, that is the part of the upper motor mount that mounts to the frame. What I don't understand is why it doesn't sit down on the frame. It has 1/2 inch of space under it. I think there has to be some rubber or something under it. I did put some spacers under it because if I had tightened it down without the spacer it would have cracked the mount in half.

The people who sold us the car had taller spacers under the mount to frame so they had to put spacers under the part that bolts to the engine. The bad part of that was the bolts were too short and stripped out the threads on one bolt.

Before I took the spacers out that they put in, the car would shutter when taking off, now it doesn't shutter. Now it sounds like the exhaust is touching the body somewhere, it makes a rumbling sound when accelerating. This car is never going to be right.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Neal, that is the part of the upper motor mount that mounts to the frame. What I don't understand is why it doesn't sit down on the frame. It has 1/2 inch of space under it. I think there has to be some rubber or something under it. I did put some spacers under it because if I had tightened it down without the spacer it would have cracked the mount in half.
> 
> The people who sold us the car had taller spacers under the mount to frame so they had to put spacers under the part that bolts to the engine. The bad part of that was the bolts were too short and stripped out the threads on one bolt.
> 
> Before I took the spacers out that they put in, the car would shutter when taking off, now it doesn't shutter. Now it sounds like the exhaust is touching the body somewhere, it makes a rumbling sound when accelerating. This car is never going to be right.


 Is this the black part he is working on at about 400 on this video?


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> Is this the black part he is working on at about 400 on this video?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6Fcp9LiZI


Neal, yep that is the part in my photo. His part is similar but not exactly like mine. 

That mount and engine is nothing like mine, except for the shape of the black part. It looks like his bolts are just bolts without a shoulder. I wish my intake was like that one, mine is behind the engine.

Edit** Forget that I said I wish my intake was like that. You should see what he has to do to change the plugs in that thing.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Neal, yep that is the part in my photo. His part is similar but not exactly like mine.
> 
> That mount and engine is nothing like mine, except for the shape of the black part. It looks like his bolts are just bolts without a shoulder. I wish my intake was like that one, mine is behind the engine.
> 
> Edit** Forget that I said I wish my intake was like that. You should see what he has to do to change the plugs in that thing.


 I went looking and found non nowhere that looks even looks close to yours. 

Some one I think as drilled yours to make the bolt work, or another mount may be the wrong part or the frame is bent. There has to be a reason for a hack fix. Is there a different car that uses the same engine. Is your engine and trany original to this car. Is there a part number on that black part?


----------



## de-nagorg

Here is another idea, if you cannot find a "blow-up" of this assembly.

Go to a wrecking yard that has one, and ask to look at it to see how yours is supposed to be arranged. 

Then decide if you want to buy their parts to repair your " GEM". 


ED


----------



## Nealtw

Does this look closer.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> Does this look closer.


That is pretty close. The one in the photo below is similar but the black part I am talking about that bolts to the frame is exactly like this one. The holes are about the same size as the one I have.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> That is pretty close. The one in the photo below is similar but the black part I am talking about that bolts to the frame is exactly like this one. The holes are about the same size as the one I have.


 The one I posted was for a nisson juke 2013 1.6L


It is like yours might be hard to find and they made something work.
You need to find someone that knows that car backwards to help you.


----------



## BigJim

We gave our grandson my 1990 Toyota 4X4 and he and his wife aren't use to a straight stick and already have burned the clutch out. I helped him today trying to get the transmission and transaxle out to replace the clutch pressure plate, flywheel, throw out bearing and pilot shaft bearing also replacing the rear main seal while there. 

He like to have never got the two bolts out of the starter. I had most of my extensions with wobble joint put together to reach the one bolt. The extensions all together were a little over 3 feet long. It took him at least 25 minutes just to get the socket on that one bolt and I had to work the ratchet to keep the socket from slipping off. I sure hope the rest of this job goes better.

I bet that straight stick with transaxle is 48 inches long if not longer. Our grandson is loving doing mechanic work. That boy, well he isn't a boy 6'2" and picked up a 300 pound transmission jack today by himself. My chin dropped down to my chest. lol Man I can't even pick up a 3/4" sheet of plywood any more. lol Man to be young....no... man to *feel* young again. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> We gave our grandson my 1990 Toyota 4X4 and he and his wife aren't use to a straight stick and already have burned the clutch out. I helped him today trying to get the transmission and transaxle out to replace the clutch pressure plate, flywheel, throw out bearing and pilot shaft bearing also replacing the rear main seal while there.
> 
> He like to have never got the two bolts out of the starter. I had most of my extensions with wobble joint put together to reach the one bolt. The extensions all together were a little over 3 feet long. It took him at least 25 minutes just to get the socket on that one bolt and I had to work the ratchet to keep the socket from slipping off. I sure hope the rest of this job goes better.
> 
> I bet that straight stick with transaxle is 48 inches long if not longer. Our grandson is loving doing mechanic work. That boy, well he isn't a boy 6'2" and picked up a 300 pound transmission jack today by himself. My chin dropped down to my chest. lol Man I can't even pick up a 3/4" sheet of plywood any more. lol Man to be young....no... man to *feel* young again. lol


I remember those days, and I too attempted to load a 3/4 sheet on the dumb cart at the BOX store a few years ago, could not do it, had to get help from a younger fellow customer.

SHEESH. 

Got it outside, and it was easier to load it in the truck, and unload it at home alone. 

I guess that there was no room there to be moving one alone. 

I also remember my first clutch vehicle, burned it up three times before I got the knack of operation. 

Drove the last one over 100,000 miles on the same clutch that it came with, but had to let it go, the steering went out, Could drive it in 4 lanes at the same time, so it was time to let it go it's own way.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> I remember those days, and I too attempted to load a 3/4 sheet on the dumb cart at the BOX store a few years ago, could not do it, had to get help from a younger fellow customer.
> 
> SHEESH.
> 
> Got it outside, and it was easier to load it in the truck, and unload it at home alone.
> 
> I guess that there was no room there to be moving one alone.
> 
> I also remember my first clutch vehicle, burned it up three times before I got the knack of operation.
> 
> Drove the last one over 100,000 miles on the same clutch that it came with, but had to let it go, the steering went out, Could drive it in 4 lanes at the same time, so it was time to let it go it's own way.
> 
> 
> ED


I had an old 1954 one ton Chevy that was all over the road like that also Ed. I hated that thing, my nephews loved it. I can't remember what I did with it.

This yokie needs an idler arm, so I am glad we had to get into it. If getting those two bolts out was that hard. I wonder how hard they will be to get back in. I am mostly just the go-fer on this job. I will be under there when we pull the trans though, I don't want him to get hurt.


----------



## yardmullet

de-nagorg said:


> I remember those days, and I too _*attempted to load a 3/4 sheet on the dumb cart at the BOX store a few years ago, could not do it,*_ had to get help from a younger fellow customer.
> 
> SHEESH.
> 
> Got it outside, and it was easier to load it in the truck, and unload it at home alone.
> 
> I guess that there was no room there to be moving one alone.
> 
> I also remember my first clutch vehicle, burned it up three times before I got the knack of operation.
> 
> Drove the last one over 100,000 miles on the same clutch that it came with, but had to let it go, the steering went out, Could drive it in 4 lanes at the same time, so it was time to let it go it's own way.
> 
> 
> ED



Was helping ex next door neighbor build his barn. He was handing 4x8 cdx to me and his FIL in the 10' loft holding it up to us lengthwise. It would almost pull us out of the loft. This was same guy who picked up a 16' 6x6 and put it in the hole when I was building my barn. He was like maybe 5'8"


----------



## raylo32

Yup we all miss our youth. I worked construction in summers as a teenager and remember carrying sheets of drywall around and up stairs, 2 at a time. Played all sports, ran high hurdles, etc. Then a couple years ago I was watching the ladies jump their horses and I said, watch this, I'll show those horses how to jump the 2' high coop jump. Well, long story short I didn't make it... crashed and burned, big time. Might have been the blue jeans and hiking boots, at least that's what I told myself. Very lucky I didn't break a collarbone or somesuch. The only good thing about that incident is I didn't have a beer and ask them to hold it. Forget about the drywall.


----------



## Bigplanz

yardmullet said:


> Was helping ex next door neighbor build his barn. He was handing 4x8 cdx to me and his FIL in the 10' loft holding it up to us lengthwise. It would almost pull us out of the loft. This was same guy who picked up a 16' 6x6 and put it in the hole when I was building my barn. He was like maybe 5'8"


I went to Lowes to buy a couple of 6x6, 8-foot long landscape timbers a few years ago. Tried to put one in my truck by myself. Nope.


----------



## yardmullet

Bigplanz said:


> I went to Lowes to buy a couple of 6x6, 8-foot long landscape timbers a few years ago. Tried to put one in my truck by myself. Nope.


 Yeah, Tommy was scary strong. He could straighten car sheet metal by hand.
Ironically even though he could help my scrawny a$$ carry a dresser up the stairs he got winded doing it. 

Specificity
bg


----------



## BigJim

I had a fellow who worked for me years back who was one of the strongest people I ever saw. He was not a huge man but he wasn't small either. He picked the rear end of a long wheel base chevy pickup out of the mud, no joke. Both his boys were strong like that but not that strong. 

I was over at their house one weekend just before going frog hunting. They had a 110 pound bar bell and I gave it a try and put it over my head. One of the boys said wait till Chuck comes home. Roger told Chuck, show Jim how to pick that bar bell up. He picked it up with one hand and put it over his head about 5 times no strain at all. I said, put it down Chuck, put it down. LOL


----------



## de-nagorg

Back in high school, There was this girl that drove a V W BUG, 

Me and a couple of buddies would pick it up and turn it around in it's parking space.

I would get the driven end and they would each take one of the front corners, we walked it out in the lot, turn it around and walk it back in it's space. 

She was mad, or at least acted that way, who knows with females. :devil3:


ED


----------



## Nealtw

de-nagorg said:


> Back in high school, There was this girl that drove a V W BUG,
> 
> Me and a couple of buddies would pick it up and turn it around in it's parking space.
> 
> I would get the driven end and they would each take one of the front corners, we walked it out in the lot, turn it around and walk it back in it's space.
> 
> She was mad, or at least acted that way, who knows with females. :devil3:
> 
> 
> ED


In middle school we had a teacher who would park between two buildings, the buildings were just over 13 feet apart. :vs_smirk:


----------



## BigJim

Picking up that bug reminded me of when I was on the fire department. There was a huge field on fire, one of the firemen buried one of the small trucks. One of the off duty firemen came and said he would pull him out with his Bronco. He buried it also. Even a backhoe got stuck. The firemen decided to pick the Bronco up out of the mud. Two big ole boys got on each side of the front and was lifting with the front fenders. There were about 10 folks, on the count of three everyone picked up.

The two big ole boys up front at the fenders leaned in hard when they all picked up. They caved both fenders in, I just cracked up. Same fire, I came back to the fire station in one of the trucks, it was so muddy you couldn't tell what color it was. It was after 8:00 pm so the next crew coming on had to wash it. lol Being a fireman is a really good job, but man when you do work, YOU WORK. I couldn't handle the politics involved so I quit, well that was one reason.


----------



## BigJim

Oh, I forgot, we got the transmission out of the Toyota 4X4 today. I have pulled some tough transmissions in my time but this one was the hardest yet. There wasn't enough room in there to cuss a cat without getting fur in your mouth. 

I don't know how in the world we are going to get it back in, any one have any suggestions? 1990 4x4 Toyota SR5 3.0 engine 5 speed. If the front differential wasn't in the way it would still be tough but nowhere as tough. That differential is right in the way. We just barely got it past it coming out.


----------



## de-nagorg

Nealtw said:


> In middle school we had a teacher who would park between two buildings, the buildings were just over 13 feet apart. :vs_smirk:


Riding a motorcycle were they?

ED


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> Oh, I forgot, we got the transmission out of the Toyota 4X4 today. I have pulled some tough transmissions in my time but this one was the hardest yet. There wasn't enough room in there to cuss a cat without getting fur in your mouth.
> 
> I don't know how in the world we are going to get it back in, any one have any suggestions? 1990 4x4 Toyota SR5 3.0 engine 5 speed. If the front differential wasn't in the way it would still be tough but nowhere as tough. That differential is right in the way. We just barely got it past it coming out.


Is your trans jack on wheels?

That helps, raise it up, rig a rope sling under the tranny, lower the tranny in the sling, reposition the jack, raise the tranny, repeat as necessary. 

Or do as I have done many times, forget the jack, and just "manhandle" it into place, by brute strength. Bench press style.

ED


I forgot, I once knew a guy that removed the cab to R&R a transmission.


----------



## Nealtw

de-nagorg said:


> Riding a motorcycle were they?
> 
> ED


We turned the VW sideways one day.


----------



## de-nagorg

Nealtw said:


> We turned the VW sideways one day.



Ah: now I understand. 

A mean practical joke EH?

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Is your trans jack on wheels?
> 
> That helps, raise it up, rig a rope sling under the tranny, lower the tranny in the sling, reposition the jack, raise the tranny, repeat as necessary.
> 
> Or do as I have done many times, forget the jack, and just "manhandle" it into place, by brute strength. Bench press style.
> 
> ED
> 
> 
> I forgot, I once knew a guy that removed the cab to R&R a transmission.


Ed, the jack does have wheels. The problem is getting the bell housing past the yoke on the front differential, I had to use a long screwdriver to pry it past when taking it out. Man handling this trans is totally out, no way anyone could hold it up long enough to get it into position. It has the transfer case hooked to the trans.

I hope I can find some threaded rod so I can screw the threaded rod into two of the bolt holes and guide the trans in place that way, or some really long bolts.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: an old trick, that I use, and thought that everyone knew, is to get a couple of 4 inch bolts and saw the heads off then saw a slot in the shaft to turn them into screws, for the upper block bolt holes.

This gives you alignment pins, that you screw into the engine block to place the trans on and slide it on into place.

I have a pair in my tool box just for that purpose.

Can that obstructive part be removed temporarily?

There is always a way to get this done.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: an old trick, that I use, and thought that everyone knew, is to get a couple of 4 inch bolts and saw the heads off then saw a slot in the shaft to turn them into screws, for the upper block bolt holes.
> 
> This gives you alignment pins, that you screw into the engine block to place the trans on and slide it on into place.
> 
> I have a pair in my tool box just for that purpose.
> 
> Can that obstructive part be removed temporarily?
> 
> There is always a way to get this done.
> 
> 
> ED


Ed, we must have STP, or something like that. lol That is what I planned with the threaded rod. The only way I can get that flange out of the way is drop the front end, it is the flange on the front differential that the front drive shaft bolts too. If I can just get it over that...it will still be hard. lol

I wish the bell housing bolted on the block, then transmission bolted to the bell housing like the old cars and trucks use too. It would be a snap then. We didn't do anything today, I am letting my back rest a little today.


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> Ed, we must have STP, or something like that. lol That is what I planned with the threaded rod. The only way I can get that flange out of the way is drop the front end, it is the flange on the front differential that the front drive shaft bolts too. If I can just get it over that...it will still be hard. lol
> 
> I wish the bell housing bolted on the block, then transmission bolted to the bell housing like the old cars and trucks use too. It would be a snap then. We didn't do anything today, I am letting my back rest a little today.


 I hear that! For some reason, I have lost 4 inches of spine, over the last ten years.

And my muscles back there complain a lot.

ED


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: All-thread won't work.

The threads make a perfect SNAG point for the hole edges to catch on and bind up, and it's too weak to support the weight anyway.

You want grade 6 or better SMOOTH shank bolts, that are long enough to give you a supporting pin to align the transmission. 

You might need to go to a real bolt supply store, to get them.

Then you " hacksaw", the head off and saw a groove crosswise the bolt diameter, to give you something to use a screwdriver to remove them from your unit, after getting it partially bolted up by the remaining holes, and replace the pins with the factory bolts. 

STP, is better than STD.:biggrin2:


ED 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> I hear that! For some reason, I have lost 4 inches of spine, over the last ten years.
> 
> And my muscles back there complain a lot.
> 
> ED


Good grief Ed, that is unreal. I know getting under the truck is going to mess my back up, but our grandson has no one else to help him. I am not much help but I have done this dozens of times and he hasn't.


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> Good grief Ed, that is unreal. I know getting under the truck is going to mess my back up, but our grandson has no one else to help him. I am not much help but I have done this dozens of times and he hasn't.


I do believe that this is why we are staying around so long. 

There is still need for us to TEACH some deserving youngsters a few tricks, that we took decades to learn. 

Yeah it's scary, my doctor calls it " The Incredible Shrinking Spine", I'm guessing that it happens to many people.

I eat right, take vitamins / minerals, don't drink / smoke, get plenty of sleep, but am still deteriorating. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> I do believe that this is why we are staying around so long.
> 
> There is still need for us to TEACH some deserving youngsters a few tricks, that we took decades to learn.
> 
> Yeah it's scary, my doctor calls it " The Incredible Shrinking Spine", I'm guessing that it happens to many people.
> 
> I eat right, take vitamins / minerals, don't drink / smoke, get plenty of sleep, but am still deteriorating.
> 
> 
> ED


That is wild Ed, I never heard of that. My doctor told me I have degenerative bone disease. I just started taking vitamins D and B-12 this morning. I don't smoke or drink but I don't get the right sleep anymore.


----------



## BigJim

I just give up, after I had the injector cleaner ran through the car at a shop, the codes cleared and didn't pop back up and none pending...until yesterday. The codes say 02 sensor 1 bank 1 AND converter, both are new. I am just going to drive the blame thing til the engine blows or totally quits, I just give up.

I also know what the rumbling is now, it is the rocker arms or the spacers. At this point, I just don't care. Let it do what it is going to do then fix it.

The crazy thing is the gas mileage is getting much better now instead of worse.


----------



## de-nagorg

There is a possibility that the ECM has lost it's mind. 

It can happen with just a static electric shock in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Or a lightning strike, or ????

Have a Nephew that tried to cross a creek in an Accord, the creek was deeper than he thought. 

It cost him a new ECM. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

Ed there is a possibility that who had this car before us tuned the EMC to make it faster. The two front cats that were gutted, when we got the car, were spotless inside, almost like they were made without the stuff inside. 

I haven't been able to get back under the car to cut the exhaust off to see if that had any bearing on anything, since helping our grandson replace the clutch in his Toyota 4X4. 

The car still stumbles when it is warm. The weird thing is now that the weather has cooled off really cool, it does run better. Anyway, I am really tired of fooling with it. I will have the AC compressor replaced on the Pathfinder and drive it when this one bites the dust.


----------



## Windows on Wash

The fact that it runs better when cold means, to me, that the fuel mixture is off. Whether that is a coolant temp switch, MAF, IAT, or something else that tells the car what the engine and air temp is...it has to be that. 



Is the car MAF or speed density?


----------



## BigJim

Windows on Wash said:


> The fact that it runs better when cold means, to me, that the fuel mixture is off. Whether that is a coolant temp switch, MAF, IAT, or something else that tells the car what the engine and air temp is...it has to be that.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the car MAF or speed density?


W.O.W. it is MAF but that has been replaced along with many other parts. I also replaced the temperature sensor.


----------



## Windows on Wash

Which temp sensor? Coolant or Inlet Air?


----------



## BigJim

Windows on Wash said:


> Which temp sensor? Coolant or Inlet Air?


Coolant Sensor. 

I didn't know there was a temp sensor for the incoming air other than the MAF.


----------



## Windows on Wash

There is usually a sensor in the air intake elbow for air temp that works with the MAF as well. 

Looks like yours is built in. 

https://www.autocodes.com/p0113_2008_nissan_sentra.html


----------



## BigJim

Good grief, looking at all the junk in that schematic, it is a wonder that an old 327 Chevy even ran without all the little trinkets they put on blame cars now days, that is just unreal. I hate these newer cars, back in the 60s if something went wrong there was only very few things to check, not like today's cars, you have to have a dern degree to even start.

One sensor tells another sensor if it is working to make sure that sensor will tell the next one of it can do what it does, it is just totally crazy. This is all in the name of clean air, I say that is bull feathers. 

It really ticks me off that the catalytic converters may be destroyed again if I don't correct the problem. I will not put another $500 in this blame car, I can buy a low milage engine from Japan for about that. Or I will space the 02 sensors.


----------



## BigJim

Well this evening, I was on the expressway doing about 65 and one of the lifters started clattering really bad. I was about 10 miles from home so I turned around and headed home. The further I went the louder the lifter got. After a little while it sounded like the lifter was turning up sideways and was eating one of the cams up. 

It was one heck of a noise especially when I got home, it was really making a loud racket. The weird thing is the oil light came on several times and I also have a gauge. I forgot to look at the gauge but my wife said it was setting on zero. 

I checked the oil when I got home and it was full like it always has been. The down side of that is the oil was black. When I checked it less than a week ago it was clear. The strange part is I cranked the engine and it has 80 pounds of pressure right now. I am afraid something serious happened this time. I almost can see myself pulling the dern engine. That is something I really don't want to do but if I have to I will. I just hope the engine is rebuildable.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: I am going to suggest that you check the oil pump for malfunction.

Also maybe the oil filter is clogged, I had one once that had a canister where you just changed the inside filter, someone before me had replaced the cartridge with a partial roll of TOILET PAPER, and it had clumped in the outlet, and prevented proper circulation, which caused a lot of clattering and unearthly noises to be coming from the engine.

I suspect that whomever did all the "bogus" adaptations that you have described so far to this car, might not be through with you yet.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: I am going to suggest that you check the oil pump for malfunction.
> 
> Also maybe the oil filter is clogged, I had one once that had a canister where you just changed the inside filter, someone before me had replaced the cartridge with a partial roll of TOILET PAPER, and it had clumped in the outlet, and prevented proper circulation, which caused a lot of clattering and unearthly noises to be coming from the engine.
> 
> I suspect that whomever did all the "bogus" adaptations that you have described so far to this car, might not be through with you yet.
> 
> 
> ED


That is unreal that someone would be so sorry as to put Toilet paper in a filter. Someone should take them out behind the barn for a little bit.

In my mind, I can just see the cams now, ate a lobe or two off, I sure hope not but it sounded so loud and bad I just knew it was going to break a cam in half any second. I also hope the crank isn't shot. They want more for a new crank than the car is worth. 

With the oil being as black as it is, I am afraid fine metal has gone all through the engine and ruined everything. Too blame cold to get out there today so I will just have to wait. The bad thing is my wife's knees are in such bad shape that she can not get into the Pathfinder very easy. I need to make her a step that she can use to get in.

If I tear into the engine, and you know I will, if it is rebuildable I will for sure put a new oil pump and screen in, flush the engine like craze. All kind of thoughts going through my mind, are the cylinder walls and pistons scored did it take out the thrust bushings. Probable ever seal in the engine is shot,(would replace them anyway). Is the head warped. One way to find out.

I will post some pictures when I get into it.


----------



## de-nagorg

A step on wheels for mobility would be helpful for her. 

You roll the step close to the cardoor, then she steps up and into the car, shuts the door, you roll the steps clear.

and drive away. 

But getting out at the doctors, store, or other place might be hard. 

I saw an older gentleman here in a 4X4, use a small step stool, with a rope tied to it to drive. 

He opened his door, took the stool from the floor, placed the stool on the ground, held the rope, stepped up and into his 4X5, sat, tugged the rope to retrieve his stool.

Placed the stool in the backseat, and drove away. 

The guess would be that at home, he lowered his stool with the rope, and stepped out. 


ED


----------



## Windows on Wash

Motor is toast @BigJim 



Sorry to hear that. If it was driven with it eating a cam lobe, the damage is done.


----------



## de-nagorg

Windows on Wash said:


> Motor is toast @BigJim
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear that. If it was driven with it eating a cam lobe, the damage is done.


First off, it's an ENGINE :vs_mad:

It could have been wearing the cam, and lifters for many miles, and not found.

Just had to be finally on your watch that it croaked. 

2 options if so, buy an older used ENGINE, in good shape, or a Crate ENGINE that is new.

Short block is cheaper, if you trust that you have good heads, valves, and manifolds and peripherals.

ED


----------



## Windows on Wash

de-nagorg said:


> First off, it's an ENGINE :vs_mad:
> 
> It could have been wearing the cam, and lifters for many miles, and not found.
> 
> Just had to be finally on your watch that it croaked.
> 
> 2 options if so, buy an older used ENGINE, in good shape, or a Crate ENGINE that is new.
> 
> Short block is cheaper, if you trust that you have good heads, valves, and manifolds and peripherals.
> 
> ED



Wouldn't trust swapping the head over to a shortblock in this case vs. a complete rebuilt MOTOR....:biggrin2:

I have rebuilt more engines than I care to remember.


----------



## de-nagorg

Windows on Wash said:


> Wouldn't trust swapping the head over to a shortblock in this case vs. a complete rebuilt MOTOR....:biggrin2:
> 
> I have rebuilt more engines than I care to remember.


Me too, I rebuilt my first one at 10 years old, all by myself, I had been training for 3-4 years under close watch of someone that thought they knew it all.

Soon I was teaching them new things. 

But that was a lifetime ago, and I try to forget that FOOL. 

You are correct, as I said "if you trust that your heads are still good".

ED


----------



## Mystriss

For yer ol' lady: https://www.amazon.com/Non-Slip-Fol...hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413742257331&psc=1


----------



## BigJim

Ed, she doesn't have any problems getting out, getting in is the problem. I have a wooden box I made that she can use but it is still very awkward. Her knees are just wore out.

I use to work at an engine rebuilding place in Memphis. My main job was inspecting for cracks or wore out blocks, boring and hand honing the blocks. I was running two boring machines at a time. I filled in working heads, building blocks and what ever they needed at the time. I tested the heads I built with kerosene, if there was a slight leak I reworked the valves.

I couldn't begin to tell you how many engines I have built over the years, I still really enjoy building them.

I took a look at the oil on the dip stick on the little car today, there is fine metal particles in the oil so I would say the engine is toast. I wouldn't be surprised if the crank and the cam journals are scored badly. With fine metal going through the engine, everything is probably gone, I just hope the mains and rods aren't shot or the pistons and cylinders aren't scored. When it warms up I guess I will see. 

Pulling that engine is going to be a challenge, it is so close in there it is unreal. Like I said one time before, the harmonic balancer is so close to the side wall, I had to wedge the engine over just to get the belt to slide past. There isn't enough room for the belt to get past even turned edge wise.

I am chomping at the bits to get into that engine to see what caused all that racket. It really sounded like a lifter was hanging on the cam and was going to break the cam in half any second. I have got to get my Unisaw out of the shop before I can get started on the engine, not enough room. I gave it to a young fellow who is just starting into wood working and can't afford a table saw. Glad I have an engine lift. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: sometimes it's easier to remove the entire "front clip", before trying to pull an engine. 

I have had to do that when someone "shoehorned" an engine into a car that it was not designed to hold.

And it sure sounds to me as if that is what you got here.


ED


----------



## BigJim

Great gobs of goose grease, man I sure hope you are wrong. I am going to just remove what I have too. I haven't looked yet but when I pulled the engine out of our grandson's Nissan Altima, I was able to slide the engine over just enough to angel it upward on the front and wiggle it out. No picnic but it did work. 

Everywhere I looked it said I had to drop that engine out the bottom of the car. I would have had to raise the whole front of the car 4 feet in the air to do that and I sure didn't have a way to do that. Man, I am too old to be doing this blame stuff, but it is either do this or do without the car. lol

I read somewhere that the transmission could be removed, then pull the engine. Heck if I have enough room to slide the trans back and clear the spline I will have enough room to pull the whole ball of wax. (six speed stick) I guess we will see. I will post some photos as I do what ever I am going to do.

Man I don't know what I would do without my phone camera and the internet. There is no way I could do this without both of them. I take a photo of every electrical connection, bracket and hose before I take it loose. If some bolts are different lengths I record that. I try not to leave anything to guess work, or heavens forbid, memory. No way this ole.... could remember where things go. LOL I do have a full factory manual saved, just in case the camera or internet don't cover something like torq specs, or do I need new bolts.

By the way, that is something new to me. Why do I need new head bolts, when I was a mechanic back in the 60s, head bolts torqued to 110 foot pounds and we reused them time after time, what changed?


----------



## de-nagorg

The quality and strength of the material that the bolt is made from has "tanked".

Plus they gotta have all your $, don't ya know?

And yes, pulling the Front Clip, is a task , but sometimes necessary.
ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> The quality and strength of the material that the bolt is made from has "tanked".
> 
> Plus they gotta have all your $, don't ya know?
> 
> And yes, pulling the Front Clip, is a task , but sometimes necessary.
> ED


I didn't think about that, everything has gotten to be so cheaply made it is unreal. I tried to rebuild a 350 Chevy, like engines were back in the 60s. I put a nice cam in it with higher compression pop up pistons. I hadn't driven 40 miles when it started missing like crazy. Pulled the engine and tore it down, the heads weren't strong enough and it burned a hole between cylinders. If I had of had internet back then I would have known to use 72 heads.

Crazy world we live in now days, can you imagine how things will be a hundred years from now? The world has really really change in my 76 years. We went from having a wagon and team of horses, to the cars of today, what a change. People have changed also, or at least are more open about things.


----------



## sestivers

Sometimes the head bolts can be re-used. If so, there will be a section in that service manual that tells you the maximum length they can be for reuse.


It isn't a material quality issue, it's a design/method that gives more precise torque across the head. http://repair.alldata.com/online2he...uld_torque-to-yield_head_bolts_be_re-used.htm


----------



## BigJim

sestivers said:


> Sometimes the head bolts can be re-used. If so, there will be a section in that service manual that tells you the maximum length they can be for reuse.
> 
> 
> It isn't a material quality issue, it's a design/method that gives more precise torque across the head. http://repair.alldata.com/online2he...uld_torque-to-yield_head_bolts_be_re-used.htm


That first paragraph pretty well says it all for me, I will buy new ones if I go that route.


----------



## BigJim

Well today I found what is wrong with the engine. I went back over the posts trying to find who asked me if I was sure it wasn't a rod knock instead of a valve clatter, I said I was positive it was valve clatter. I want to humbly apologize to you, you were right, it is a rod or a wrest pin, but my bet is on it being a rod about to come loose. 

I have never heard a rod sound like this one did in all the years I have worked on cars. But then my hearing is much much worse than it was too. With hearing aids you can't tell which direction the sound is coming from, you just hear the sound and can't tell where it is. Well...that is my excuse, but that is true about hearing aids. LOL 

I took the plugs out of the engine today and took a long fiberglass rod and pushed down on each piston. The third one I push on dropped hard and mad a clunk sound. There is for sure an awful lot of slack there when it should be none at all. That will account for the oil light coming on and the oil pressure to drop to next to nothing. The pump is good but I won't use it again.

I just hope the crank isn't toast, if it is, I will go back with a JDM Japanese low milage engine, and it won't be one of the hot rod engines. I just hope I can rebuild it, that way I can rebuild it a little at a time instead of trying to come up with the money for another engine.

I could get a crankshaft kit locally and if the cylinders aren't scored I can use the same piston and replace the rings. I will mic the wrist pins it see if there is any slop in them. 

Well at least now I know why it was stumbling, the knock sensor was kicking in and the computer was adjusting the fuel. I don't know why there wasn't a code for the knock sensor.

Question, is it safe to disconnect this, is this the ECM? I have the battery unhooked.


----------



## BigJim

Just had another thought, with the rod being that loose, there is a chance the piston slapped the head, if that is true, this engine is really done for.


----------



## Windows on Wash

The engine is done Jim. If it spun a rod bearing that bad, the crank is smoked.


----------



## de-nagorg

At the least that one journal is in serious need of refinishing. 

As you know, there might be much more that has gotten damaged by the sloppy fit, so let us see what you find, as we are curious to learn as you learn. 

I would put the dealer where I bought that lemon on a list of "do not shop there again", ever, and tell everyone that I know, or ever meet that the place is a real RIP OFF. 

But I'm a mean SOB, when I get cheated. :vs_laugh:


ED


----------



## BigJim

I bought the car knowing there would be a few things to fix but not a whole engine. I will post some pictures as I get into it deeper. As hard as it was hitting I am afraid there is too much damage to salvage. It wasn't just knocking, something was hanging really bad at times, it sounded like something was fixing to break big time. I can't wait to see inside.

Eric, I am almost positive it spun a rod bearing. If it didn't crack the crank, they can weld it back up and turn it again. It is really cool to watch them do that.

You can spot check a crank to see if it is cracked or not, Hold the first journal counter weight and just slightly ding the end of the crank on the concrete floor, if it rings chances are it is good, if it makes a thud sound, it is cracked somewhere. The only real way is to magnaflux it unless they have come up with a new way. A crank that has been welded up to make a stroker, the crank will thud every time, it will have to be magnafluxed to see if it is gone or not.


----------



## Windows on Wash

Doubt the crank is cracked and stayed together. If it did break, the damage would likely have been more catastrophic (i.e. ventilating the block). If you drove it for a good bit on the spun bearing, the question becomes what happened to the metallurgy of the crank at that point. You can weld big cracks in blocks back together as well, but at what point is the motor not worth "fixing" in this case. I am a huge proponent of fixing stuff and do not subscribe to the "throw away" society, but if the car is of no historic or sympathetic value to you...its time to scrap it...or at least get a completely "new" (i.e. junker, rebuild, etc.) motor. That said, you still don't know if you swap this motor and have the same running issues. 

I guarantee you that the operational issues are what led to this motor failure.


----------



## BigJim

Windows on Wash said:


> Doubt the crank is cracked and stayed together. If it did break, the damage would likely have been more catastrophic (i.e. ventilating the block). If you drove it for a good bit on the spun bearing, the question becomes what happened to the metallurgy of the crank at that point. You can weld big cracks in blocks back together as well, but at what point is the motor not worth "fixing" in this case. I am a huge proponent of fixing stuff and do not subscribe to the "throw away" society, but if the car is of no historic or sympathetic value to you...its time to scrap it...or at least get a completely "new" (i.e. junker, rebuild, etc.) motor. That said, you still don't know if you swap this motor and have the same running issues.
> 
> I guarantee you that the operational issues are what led to this motor failure.


I agree, but we have had this car for only 3 months or so. The little car is perfect, looks new inside and out, new tires and all. The down side is, it is a blame race car and I can almost bet some teen dogged the dickens out of this car. 

I have had great luck out of JDM engines, they are pretty reliable. The down side to that is, only an engine from 2007-2012 will fit and they are hard to find. Even several I have found won't fit, it has to be a QR engine. This is a 2008 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V 2.5 engine, 6 speed stick. If I can find an engine that is not high compression, I will buy it, if I can afford it. Having to use the high dollar gas is the pits.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: the compression ratio is an aspect of the piston aspect, all you need to do is install less "high" pistons on your rebuild.

But you know that, you said that you were a rebuilder in a different career.

Look in junk yards for a donor wreck, for an engine, if this was a true race car, , many of it's "twins" are more than likely "totaled by now.


Shop on e-bay, there are thousands of sellers there willing to part with their parts.

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: the compression ratio is an aspect of the piston aspect, all you need to do is install less "high" pistons on your rebuild.
> 
> But you know that, you said that you were a rebuilder in a different career.
> 
> Look in junk yards for a donor wreck, for an engine, if this was a true race car, , many of it's "twins" are more than likely "totaled by now.
> 
> 
> Shop on e-bay, there are thousands of sellers there willing to part with their parts.
> 
> ED


Man, I really am slipping Ed, I did know the pistons were either popup or the wrist pins were lower to bring the compression up, I just didn't think about it. I really do appreciate you reminding me. I loved building the true Hemis back in the 60s those engines were just shy of a diesel, small pistons but long stroked, they were some really mean engines. 

I hated to bore a 348 or a 409 Chevy, the heads set level on top of the engine instead of being square with the cylinders, it was a pain setting up to bore. One thing bad about them though is, if you missed a gear while revving the engine high, you could just about kiss that engine good bye. They had solid lifters and really too heavy of a spring on the valves, over rev and the top of that valve would pop off and there goes the engine.

That is a good idea to check junk yards for an engine or on ebay even if I had to get one to rebuild, I would probably come out better. Check the price for a new crank on that engine, I like to have dropped my teeth. $2000 or more. Not this ole boy.


----------



## de-nagorg

$2,000.00?

A man could buy a rusted out junker from the "salt belt", with a great engine, for that, and swap to the great body that he has , and come out in the + .


ED


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: Does this one "fit the bill", for your car?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-2-5...=3528454217835d79794356ea450d8509faca2927bab7

They ( e-bay ) list 320 more for a 2008 Sentra, but not all say QR. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

That is the same car and even the same color as our car. The down side to that is if that wrecked side move the side wall 1/4 of an inch toward the engine, it hit it. I kid you not, the bottom crank pulley is so close to the side wall you can't get a belt off or on by turning it sideways. I had to drive a wooden wedge between the wall and the engine to get it off.

I do appreciate you looking, thanks buddy. I will keep looking, I am hoping against all hope that the engine is rebuildable.


----------



## Brainbucket

Rod knock on a short throw sounds like a lifter tap. Not like a hammer in the bigger engines. If ya wanna rebuild it, that's cool. I just rebuilt a 3.6 out of a 11 Chevy Traverse which I own. But I don't build engines for customers anymore. It takes too much time. I can either get a reman or a crate engine from the dealer or I get used ones from LKQ. I love LKQ!:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> Rod knock on a short throw sounds like a lifter tap. Not like a hammer in the bigger engines. If ya wanna rebuild it, that's cool. I just rebuilt a 3.6 out of a 11 Chevy Traverse which I own. But I don't build engines for customers anymore. It takes too much time. I can either get a reman or a crate engine from the dealer or I get used ones from LKQ. I love LKQ!:vs_cool:


BB, I just found that out the hard way. I actually like rebuilding engines, it is the getting them out and back in I hate. lol

I just checked LKQ and about all they have are 2.0s for a regular Sentra. I wish a 2.0 would fit in the little car but they won't, at least all I have found won't. I have found engine to fit the SE-R Spec V are rare as hen's teeth. The very few I have found are way out of my range so rebuilding is my only option, so far. I just hope that piston didn't slap the head.

I should know maybe today, the engine is about ready to pull.


----------



## carmusic

you may check for 2.5l from an altima, x-trail, some seems bolt-on swap
for more info check this nissan forum
https://www.nissanforums.com/threads/2-5l-engine-swap-question.167099/


----------



## BigJim

carmusic said:


> you may check for 2.5l from an altima, x-trail, some seems bolt-on swap
> for more info check this nissan forum
> https://www.nissanforums.com/threads/2-5l-engine-swap-question.167099/


They were asking will a 2010 2.5 fit a 2002 Sentra, it will not fit. The engines for Sentras and Altimas changed from 2006 to 2007. They will not interchange. Only engines from 2007-2011 or 12 will fit anything in those years. 2.0s will fit a Sentra or an Altima but they will not fit a Sentra SE-R Spec V. The 2.0s have the exhaust manifold in the rear where the SE-R Spec V have the exhaust manifold in the front of the engine. The motor mounts won't come close to fitting.

I have read that the 2.5 SE-R Spec V engine is about as good as it gets. All I can say is someone dogged the dickens out of this little car, it only has 130,000 miles on it and that is low for an engine like this.

I really do appreciate your help, I will re-read that link, maybe I didn't read far enough, they may know something I don't. :smile:

I am noticing where rust is starting to form under the paint on this car, I am now wondering if it wasn't one of the flood cars. That would be just my blame luck.


----------



## Brainbucket

I suggest to use dealer piston rings. You can use aftermarket everything else. (Love Rock Auto) Been there, done that. Aftermarket rings don't do the job as dealer rings. This will solve the using oil, occasional misfire that can't be found. Yes, I've been there. On my 3.6, I used dealer rings, timing components. Got my crank from rock auto as the only place I could find was the dealer for around $800.00. Rock auto had it for around $300.00. Fel-Pro gaskets, AC Delco oil pump at rock auto. Heads were done at machine shop. Reused pistons as there were perfect and measured within specs. Cylinders were good and measure within specs. Just honed them and bingo. Thank you synthetic oil. Reused cams and VVT cam gears. If I had used dino oil I would be boring the block. My 550hp 454 had synthetic oil and when I refreshed it at 40,000 hard hot rod miles, I could still see the hone marks in the cylinders. Measured good. AWSOME!:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> I suggest to use dealer piston rings. You can use aftermarket everything else. (Love Rock Auto) Been there, done that. Aftermarket rings don't do the job as dealer rings. This will solve the using oil, occasional misfire that can't be found. Yes, I've been there. On my 3.6, I used dealer rings, timing components. Got my crank from rock auto as the only place I could find was the dealer for around $800.00. Rock auto had it for around $300.00. Fel-Pro gaskets, AC Delco oil pump at rock auto. Heads were done at machine shop. Reused pistons as there were perfect and measured within specs. Cylinders were good and measure within specs. Just honed them and bingo. Thank you synthetic oil. Reused cams and VVT cam gears. If I had used dino oil I would be boring the block. My 550hp 454 had synthetic oil and when I refreshed it at 40,000 hard hot rod miles, I could still see the hone marks in the cylinders. Measured good. AWSOME!:vs_cool:


Man, that is some great information BB, thank you, I really appreciate it. 

When I go back with this engine, I will go with the synthetic oil, that is really good to know. 

It is raining here today so I will just sit this one out.


----------



## BigJim

Got the engine on the ground but I really messed up big time. One of the flywheel bolts are some really weird looking things. I am sure I will go back with new bolts. I bought a socket that was close to a fit but still had some slop to the fit. I got all the bolts out...except for one and I really really messed it up big time. Any suggestions how I can get this blame last bolt out short of destroying the flywheel? Here is a photo of the bolt head. The bad part is the bolt is in a tight recess. 

A new flywheel is around $250 or more. I have never seen one like this. The ones I have seen are solid, not this one it has two or three pieces to it.

Here is the bolt and the engine.


----------



## Nealtw

Drill and easy out or just drill and remove the head to release the torque.


----------



## de-nagorg

Have a welder?

Weld an extension on that thing, and then remove them together.

Use a new grade 8 bolt as your extension, and get it welded solid to the old crap, and let them cool a bit, to maybe shrink enough to be easier to turn out.

Done that a few times.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Have a welder?
> 
> Weld an extension on that thing, and then remove them together.
> 
> Use a new grade 8 bolt as your extension, and get it welded solid to the old crap, and let them cool a bit, to maybe shrink enough to be easier to turn out.
> 
> Done that a few times.
> 
> 
> ED


I sold my welding rig and cutting torches a few years back, didn't think I would ever need them again. I have kicked myself a bunch of time since, as I have needed all of them a lot.

I have been doing some reading and a carbon tip drill bit will cut case hardened bolts. So I looked further and if I reshape a carbon tip masonry drill bit it will do the trick. I will sure let you know tomorrow, I have several of those and I have a diamond disc on a side grinder. Now to fine some more of them blame bolts. Why in the world they would make crazy bolt heads like that is beyond me.

Man I wanted to get inside that engine so bad today it isn't funny. May I will tomorrow. Oh, now dig this, there is no pilot shaft bearing or bushing at all in the crank, the whole splined shaft goes inside of the crank, that is just crazy.


----------



## de-nagorg

I'm guessing that that bolt don't belong there.

Some SCAB used whatever they could find to build this car, and now you are tasked with setting it right. 

That is a weird way to transfer power to the transmission, the input shaft is direct drive, and the clutch assembly disconnects the transfer, weird. 

Rice Burners eh?

Give me plain old American Engineered please. :vs_smirk:


ED


----------



## BigJim

All the bolts were the same, this one was just too stubborn to break loose. I have done more reading and this is really a stupid way of doing things, IMHO but it is what it is. The clutch plate is solid, no springs, they made the flywheel two pieces with the spring, instead of the clutch plate. This is called a Duel Mass flywheel, where the old flywheels are now called Single Mass flywheels.

Good grief, why can't they just leave things alone like they were. You for sure don't want to put a solid clutch plate in with a solid single mass flywheel. 

Another thing that has me baffled is, why didn't they put a bushing or bearing in the end of the crank where the pilot shaft goes? There is nothing there but a hole in the end of the crank, the pilot shaft with the splines goes into that hole. What keeps the end of the pilot shaft from wearing out and vibrating like crazy.

Also the slave cylinder is made onto the throw out bearing, or the other way around. I would sure hate to have to change one out, the transmission would have to come out to change it. I am really starting to hate this car.

I also discovered that the slave cylinder and the brakes have the same fluid reservoir. When I took the line loose to the slave cylinder, I wasn't aware of this and all the fluid in the master cylinder has drained out. What a blame mess. If I ever get this car back together, it will be a wonder.

Oh, I forgot, the Nissan dealership are the only people who have a driver that will fit this flywheel bolt and they will not sell it or pull the flywheel off the engine for anyone, because the engine is out of the car. Just like the Altima with the crazy looking bolt in their flywheel, it takes a special torqx socket and no one sells them. I made one work for those bolts.

EDIT** I just watched a video where the guy used a clutch plate with springs on a Duel Mass flywheel. I wonder how that is going to work out?


----------



## BigJim

I found out carbide tip drill bits will cut or drill casehardened steel. I sharpened a couple of old masonry bits I had and sure enough, it drilled the head off that casehardened bolt. I did have to resharpen a few times because I had beat the fool out of the head of that bolt so it being jagged it chipped the bit a couple times.

I am into the engine today, I just haven't got the head and the rest of the oil pan off yet. Why in the world do they put so many parts on an engine now days, it is unreal. As slow as I am, I would starve to death if I did mechanic work again. lol I was surprised at how easy the engine came out though, it didn't hang the first time.

Maybe I will get deep into the engine tomorrow.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: each and every one of those extra parts, come with a 3 page paragraph, in some obscure "Gubmint" regulation, designed to make a cleaner environment.

The cars of 1960 ran cleaner, better, and easier to work on, with no extras tacked on. 

But people are lazy, and did not maintain them properly, therefore they started dripping, leaking, or burning the fuel inefficiently, due to no real tuning. 

Keep the old engines tuned proper and they could beat the new computer controlled garbage easily. 

Thank you for keeping us up to date on this engine, I for one am curious as to what failed.


ED


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> I found out carbide tip drill bits will cut or drill casehardened steel. I sharpened a couple of old masonry bits I had and sure enough, it drilled the head off that casehardened bolt. I did have to resharpen a few times because I had beat the fool out of the head of that bolt so it being jagged it chipped the bit a couple times.
> 
> I am into the engine today, I just haven't got the head and the rest of the oil pan off yet. Why in the world do they put so many parts on an engine now days, it is unreal. As slow as I am, I would starve to death if I did mechanic work again. lol I was surprised at how easy the engine came out though, it didn't hang the first time.
> 
> Maybe I will get deep into the engine tomorrow.


If they can't get a torque the same on a flywheel, good luck with the head.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> If they can't get a torque the same on a flywheel, good luck with the head.


Neal, I am surprised but the head bolts are allen head bolts, I will use a 10mm allen and an impact to remove them. I tried to take one out this evening with a long allen wrench, I was afraid the wrench was going to snap.

I am having problems removing the bucket lifters, they have a suction that I can't break. I can't find my blame magnet to pull them. I don't want to flip the engine to get the excess oil out of the head, I am afraid they will fall off and get mixed up. Maybe tomorrow. 

I will for sure post photos when I get that cotten pickin oil pan off. I have to remover the Balancer Unit and chain before I can get the rest of the pan off. It is just unreal.

I did pull the cams out today, the journals are scored a little but they will clean up with a fine sanding. The engine is clean as a whistle inside. The lobs on the cams don't look worn at all. The timing chain and all look great, I am just leery of the crank.


----------



## Brainbucket

$247.89









$37.79
Rock Auto 08 Nissan Sentra 2.5 C engine code. Ya can't beat em.:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> $247.89
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $37.79
> Rock Auto 08 Nissan Sentra 2.5 C engine code. Ya can't beat em.:vs_cool:


Thanks BB, that is my favorite place to buy parts. So far very few places have beat their prices. Do a google on a new crank for this 2008 Sentra SE-R Spec V 2.5 engine, it like to have knocked my socks off. I could buy another engine from JDM for less. Hopefully in just a little while I will know the damage done.


----------



## BigJim

You ain't going to believe this, I still don't. There is no rod bearing in the loose rod, zero, no sign of one anywhere, not even a little piece of one. I looked in the oil pan I looked in every place possible, there is no sign of a rod bearing anywhere. I thought it may be melted to the crank, but it isn't, the spit hole on the crank is visible. If the bearing was melted to the crank, you couldn't see the spit hole on the crank.

Neal, have you ever taken a head off like this one? What is the trick to get the head bolts out? My impact wrench has 1500 foot pounds of removing torque, it rounded the Allen head off with a new Allen wrench socket. It didn't damage the allen socket in the least bu it sure did that dern bolt. Man I don't want to have to drill everyone of those bolts out, it will take me days just to do that. Having to sharpen the carbide tip drill bits every few minutes is the pits.

The next wonderful thing was getting the Balancer Unit and chain off. I don't have a clue what blame socket I need to use but it sure isn't the e series sockets. I actually had a 2 foot pipe wrench with a 2 1/2 foot pipe and the blame bolts did not break loose. I finally just cut them off and used a chisel to turn them loose. I have never in my life seen a more aggravating engine than this one. I really really hate this car now.

Not one thing went right today, at least that I remember. OK one thing that went right was the rod bolts take a 12 point 10 mil socket. OK two things, I got the bucket lifters out.

Here are a few photos. the first one is the rod caps, the bad one is on the left and good one on right.
The bad Journal.
Engine.
Good Journal.
Notice the rod bearing isn't even down to brass yet. I put the good rod bearing in the bad cap and it is at least a heavy .0625 " loose.

I don't think this engine had a rod bearing in that rod cap at all. If it did some of the rod bearing would be somewhere.


----------



## BigJim

I just went back out there again, there is something on top of the thrust bearing about as thick as a razor blade, that may be what is left of the rod cap if there was one. I guess we will see.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: having saw it before, I am going to say that someone put a wrong thing in that engine just to get it sold.

I bought one that had a 1" leather belt, cut down to fit, and placed in the rod journal cavity.

It ran great the first 250 miles, then crapped out, much like what you have. 

Take the oil filter that you got with the car, cut it open to see what is in there that should not be.

You will find whatever they used to "*******" this little car. 

Be it leather, or even a nylon ratchet strap, or virtually anything they found lying around. 

As for those head bolts, the first thing you do is put that air tool away. 

Then make double sure that you are using the proper sized hex socket.

Close fit, ain't good enough, you need a perfect fitting one.

Then use a 2' breaker bar, and maybe a cheater pipe, to apply steady torque to the bolt, until it comes loose. 

I saw too many "pros" using air tools, mess things up, and I prescribe to the "Armstrong" method, it works much better. 

Air tools are great for many things, but engine building is not one of them. 

You already ruined one bolt, that you are going to need to drill the head off of.

Gentle steady pressure that increases until it loosens, is my go to for head bolts.


ED


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> I just went back out there again, there is something on top of the thrust bearing about as thick as a razor blade, that may be what is left of the rod cap if there was one. I guess we will see.


That raises a different suspect, If they got the bearing reversed, the oil holes did not align properly, causing it to wear rapidly, there should be particles left somewhere, maybe in the oil filter. 

I hate amateurs building these, Can you tell?:vs_mad:


ED


----------



## BigJim

Ed, there is no way to put the bearing in the cap wrong, you can't even reverse the caps, these have dowels on one side of the rod, the caps have fit on too. I didn't think of the oil filter, I will dig that sucker back out of the garbage.

Ed, I bought a 10 mil socket/allen that fit the bolt head perfect. I had a 3/4 drive breaker bar with a 32 inch pipe and it still wouldn't come loose. I wasn't about the round another head bolt off with the impact. I figured someone knew something I didn't about removing those head bolts. 

Here is another little gem that I can't find anywhere, do you have a clue what it is. I know it isn't an e series socket. Maybe it is some kind of torx socket, what do you think?


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: Don't underestimate the idiocy of some people.

Could they "accidently" have put the upper half in the lower cap, and the lower half in the upper spot, thus plugging or nearly plugging the oil holes?

I have seen bolts like that, I forget their name, but it takes sockets made for them. 

Brainbucket might be a better help for the specific tools needed for that, I'm sure that he is interested as I am on this puzzle. 


You might try a little heat, on those head bolts, to try to persuade them to unscrew, I hope that the previous builder did not put thread locker on them. 

ED


----------



## Nealtw

something like this. But it is listed for the flywheel 

https://www.centurytool.net/N512_Assenmacher_Specialty_Tools_Nissan_Flywheel_B_p/asmn512.htm


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: Don't underestimate the idiocy of some people.
> 
> Could they "accidently" have put the upper half in the lower cap, and the lower half in the upper spot, thus plugging or nearly plugging the oil holes?
> 
> I have seen bolts like that, I forget their name, but it takes sockets made for them.
> 
> Brainbucket might be a better help for the specific tools needed for that, I'm sure that he is interested as I am on this puzzle.
> 
> 
> You might try a little heat, on those head bolts, to try to persuade them to unscrew, I hope that the previous builder did not put thread locker on them.
> 
> ED


Ed I don't know about swapping the upper with the lower bearing, I will check tomorrow. anything is possible though. 

I got a feeling that is exactly what they used on the threads of the head bolts. I know when I cut the heads off the bolts on the Balance shaft they got heated really good. When I cut them half way off I could use a pair of channel locks and the bolts unscrewed easily. So that tells me they used loctite on them maybe. I didn't look at the bolts to see if there was anything on them.

I may wait until our grandson comes over and helps me on the head bolts. Drew is 6 foot 2 and is close to 290 pounds and that boy is some kinda strong. He picked up a 300 pound jack and loaded it. The 3/4 drive beaker bar I have slides so we can put two pipes on the sucker and if something don't break, that will be something.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> something like this. But it is listed for the flywheel
> 
> https://www.centurytool.net/N512_Assenmacher_Specialty_Tools_Nissan_Flywheel_B_p/asmn512.htm


Neal, I bought one of those for the flywheel bolts on an Altima but I had to grind the bevel part out of it, but it did work. I may check with NAPA and see if they have one the size I need for these bolts. A socket wouldn't fit the flywheel on this Sentra there wasn't but maybe 1/16th inch clearance nowhere enough room to get a socket in there. I really do appreciate you posting that socket, that is what I think will work. I bought that larger socket from NAPA I just hope they have this size.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Neal, I bought one of those for the flywheel bolts on an Altima but I had to grind the bevel part out of it, but it did work. I may check with NAPA and see if they have one the size I need for these bolts. A socket wouldn't fit the flywheel on this Sentra there wasn't but maybe 1/16th inch clearance nowhere enough room to get a socket in there. I really do appreciate you posting that socket, that is what I think will work. I bought that larger socket from NAPA I just hope they have this size.


My experience with aluminum engines was back when they used studs and nuts so you had more than one chance of things coming apart.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> My experience with aluminum engines was back when they used studs and nuts so you had more than one chance of things coming apart.


The old engines really spoiled me, these new cars are unreal.


----------



## Nealtw

I did watch one of my grandsons set a head back on an engine. He gave me the spiel about not setting the head face down because the valves stick out. Then he set it on the engine with out checking which pistons were at TDC and which valves were open.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> I did watch one of my grandsons set a head back on an engine. He gave me the spiel about not setting the head face down because the valves stick out. Then he set it on the engine with out checking which pistons were at TDC and which valves were open.


Awwww man, that would really make me unhappy. But this engine you can't get to the head bolts without taking the cams out. I know your grandson was not a happy camper.

All I am hoping is the pistons can come out the bottom without taking the head off, but I got a feeling they won't.


----------



## BigJim

Hot diggity dad blame, I got all the bolts out today. I finally found a socket that will fit the craddle bolts, it is a E-14 Torx. 

I am so happy I don't know what to do. I did a lot of praying and it worked. I flipped the block over and let the oil drip out of the head bolt holes. I looked with a flash light after flipping it back over, and the head bolt I thought I rounded out, looked like it wasn't stripped. I tried to push the allen down in the bolt head but it was too tight so I drove it in. 

To my delight the allen held and that bolt came out so I used my 3/4 drive breaker bar which will slide to where it forms a "T", every one of the head bolts came out. Oh they were really tight but they did come out, I poured the coal to the breaker bar and they all broke loose.

I now have the engine totally torn down and ready to get busy finding new parts. Looks like I can get by with one rod, a crankshaft kit, new bolts, complete gasket set and a set of rings. I will rehone the cylinders, as they are not in too bad shape. I am undecided if I want to go back with lesser compression pistons so we won't have to buy the high dollar gas. 

I did find slivers of the rod bearing hiding in the thrust bearing journal. I am amazed we made it back home with that engine.

Any clue where I can find new bolts to replace the balance shaft, I had to grind all of them off. That was before I found the E-Torx socket would work, dad burn it. I know I can eliminate the balance shaft, but I would feel more comfortable with it back in there.

Here are a few photos of the mess out in the shop. I just hope I an get it all back where it belongs. lol Oh, I think I am going back with a solid flywheel and springed clutch plate.

Notice the head, what could cause the top exhaust valves to burn white and the lower two be real dark colored? Could a bad in injector cause that?


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: I see evidence of either too much fuel, or the wrong octane rating fuel being run through there.

The black is CARBON deposits, that caused it to be too hot a fire , that then overheated the other valves and made ash buildup, making them whitish. 

Those pistons need de-carboned anyway, and by the time you do that it might be better to just buy lower compression ones anyway. 

A danged shame that some previous owner did this to the car, but you can't fix stupid. 

Great that you got the bolts off, maybe look at all the aftermarket racer catalogs like JEG'S, or others for those bolts that you ground up.

or Forbid the thought the DEALER.


ED


----------



## de-nagorg

I forgot to add, Before you install the head later, take some cotton swabs (q-tips), and clean any leftover oil from all those head bolt holes. 

That way you are not torqueing anything in the holes instead of the actual gasket.

saw one once where they torqued oil, and the head was still loose enough that it blew the head gasket the first time it started.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> I forgot to add, Before you install the head later, take some cotton swabs (q-tips), and clean any leftover oil from all those head bolt holes.
> 
> That way you are not torqueing anything in the holes instead of the actual gasket.
> 
> saw one once where they torqued oil, and the head was still loose enough that it blew the head gasket the first time it started.
> 
> 
> ED


Ed, that is what happened to that head bolt I thought I had rounded out. There was oil in the allen head and when I shoved the wrench in there, it was such a tight fit it built up hydraulics and the allen didn't go deep enough in. 

If the cost isn't too bad, I may go ahead and put the lower compression pistons in, the pay back may take a while but in the log run it will save some bucks. The gas now is costing me $.75 a gallon more than regular, that is $10.80 each fill up.

I am going to blow every hole in that engine out before i even think about going back together. I don't want to do this again. lol


----------



## BigJim

Ed, those last to cylinders on the head that were dark, I cleaned the head today and those two cylinders are pumping oil. I will need to pop the valves and see if the guides are worn. 

I checked the head for warp and it is in good shape, no light under the straight edge, couldn't get a .002 feeler under anywhere. None of the rings are sharp so they weren't worn out. I makes me think the valve guides might have some slack.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Ed, those last to cylinders on the head that were dark, I cleaned the head today and those two cylinders are pumping oil. I will need to pop the valves and see if the guides are worn.
> 
> I checked the head for warp and it is in good shape, no light under the straight edge, couldn't get a .002 feeler under anywhere. None of the rings are sharp so they weren't worn out. I makes me think the valve guides might have some slack.


More often just valve seals.


----------



## BigJim

Thanks Neal, I sure hope you are right.


----------



## de-nagorg

Yes, seals are the first thing to check.


Oil burning usually shows up in the exhaust long before it builds up any deposits, but anything is possible .


Then look at the valve shank where it rides in the guideway.

Any wear, then you have a new thing to buy, and if the guides cannot be replaced, it's new heads too.

I hope not.

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Yes, seals are the first thing to check.
> 
> 
> Oil burning usually shows up in the exhaust long before it builds up any deposits, but anything is possible .
> 
> 
> Then look at the valve shank where it rides in the guideway.
> 
> Any wear, then you have a new thing to buy, and if the guides cannot be replaced, it's new heads too.
> 
> I hope not.
> 
> ED


If the guides can't be replaced, if that is it, I will junk the engine. That is way more expense than we can come up with.

If I don't miss my guess, that is what killed the orignal catalytic converters, oil. They didn't want to replace the converters, so they cut one off and gutted the other. Man I wish a 2.0 would fit but it won't. The only engine that will fit is a 2.5 2007 - 2011 SE-R Spec V. These engines are next to impossible to find and when found they are way out of our range. The only choice I have is rebuild.

Whew, just checked, the guides are replaceable. I sure wish I could hear like a normal person, I would have known that the valves weren't clattering but the rod was loose. Oh well it is what it is so I will just deal with what ever comes of it.

Question, does this piston look like a stock piston? I don't know if Nissan stamps the piston with the over size or not.


----------



## de-nagorg

I am going to guess using experience as well to say that is the original one from that engine.

The #2 that you penciled in coincides with the 2 stamped into it at the top center of the dip in it. 

You will need to look up the other numbers in it , the 0 05 looks similar to a code for .05 oversized, and the lettering might be a code for it also.

There has to be a website that has all this for reference by owners of these little "rice rockets". 

Great news that the guides are replaceable, if needed.

That will save money.

In that e-bay listing there were several of this sized engine listed, not just the one that I linked to. 

I'm not pushing for you to spend more than you can afford, but I do hate to see anyone spend money on something to have it wasted. 

I have done that , 10 years ago I spent $10,000 on refitting a F250 4X4 to have it just sit in my yard, and go nowhere. 

It too only burns Premium , and gets 7 mpg. 

So that is nearly 15$ to just go to the post office. When I can go in my Explorer for 3$. 

But hey the F250 will run at 140+ MPH, hauling a 2 ton load:devil3:


ED


----------



## BigJim

When I cleaned that piston I said, oh shoot, they have the #2 piston in the wrong hole. LOL They all have that number. :smile:

Buddy, money is tight on a fixed income. It will take me a while to complete this build, unless our rich uncle dies in the poor house. lol

Question, I wonder if I used a can of Lucas injector cleaner each tank of gas, if it would work instead of using high test. The cost difference is over $10 a tank, I can get the Lucas for about $3, just a thought.

That 4x4 might burn a lot of fuel but when you need it, it sure is nice.


----------



## SeniorSitizen

Is the purpose of hi-test gasoline to prevent detonation ?


----------



## de-nagorg

SeniorSitizen said:


> Is the purpose of hi-test gasoline to prevent detonation ?


That is one of it's benefits.

When you get bored look up octane rating in fuel.

It's illuminating.:biggrin2:

ED


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> When I cleaned that piston I said, oh shoot, they have the #2 piston in the wrong hole. LOL They all have that number. :smile:
> 
> Buddy, money is tight on a fixed income. It will take me a while to complete this build, unless our rich uncle dies in the poor house. lol
> 
> Question, I wonder if I used a can of Lucas injector cleaner each tank of gas, if it would work instead of using high test. The cost difference is over $10 a tank, I can get the Lucas for about $3, just a thought.
> 
> That 4x4 might burn a lot of fuel but when you need it, it sure is nice.


The Lucas would be one way to increase the fuels octane, there are other octane boosters on the market, and all are cheaper than the cost of a full tank of "ethyl". 

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> The Lucas would be one way to increase the fuels octane, there are other octane boosters on the market, and all are cheaper than the cost of a full tank of "ethyl".
> 
> ED


Buddy, that is what I love to hear, thanks a ton.

My next question, which I haven't researched, is, can I remove the transmission without having to jerk that engine back out. I ask because the clutch has a lot of life left, but I don't want to have to pull the engine again to swap it out. Getting the engine out is really easy, getting everything off to get it out is a really really lot of work. Maybe I can get it out the bottom if I jack the car up like this guy did his truck. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

NO.

Do not try that. I bear permanent head injury from a similar fiasco. 

How does the manufacturer recommend removing the transmission? 

And do you have the proper lifts, jacks and other tools needed?


ED


----------



## BigJim

I was just puttin the shuck on ya buddy. lol Over the years I have a pretty good collection of tools. I have a engine lift that I wish was a lot lighter, I am trying to trade for a lighter one now. This one has to weigh over 300 pounds. 

Here is the engine on a stand we got a while back from Harbor Freight. After I got everything off the block it was so small. lol


----------



## BigJim

Too cold to get out in the shop today so I did a lot of research. Seems like the further I go with this build the worse it gets. I have been thinking at least two valve guides will need to be replaced. That is about all I can think of the reason for oil on the valves in two cylinders or maybe the seals are shot. Well I am sure the seals are shot.

Can you believe the way the factory manual said to remover the valve guides. It said place the head in a tank of oil heated to 230 degrees. Then it takes 2.2 tons of pressure to remove them. There is no way I can heat a tank of oil like that. What will happen if I just drive them out like I use too? Man I hate this car. Now on top of that, I can't find the blame tool to drive the guide out with. One thing after another.

I can't find new bolts to replace the balance shaft and I found out today a lot of the balance shafts size up and there goes the engine, they say it is fairly common on this engine. How wonderful! A lot of the guys are replacing the balance shaft and leaving the chain off. They said all that happens is the engine will vibrate. I asked how much, so far no one has told me. But there is a car tech who sells plates that will replace the balance shaft for $150. Just put the blame thing back on and leave the chain off.

One fellow said to put dampers on the engine that are like shocks that will absorb the vibration. For the love of Mike, why did they change the stupid engines with all this junk on then in the first place? Sorry to vent, but man I am batting my head against the wall. The further I go the worse it gets.

everyone tells me to replace with dealer parts. Check out the price of dealer piston rings, something like $661 just for stupid rings. Not in this life time. They want $110 for one rod. I will build this engine with after market parts and if it comes apart I will junk the dern thing. I can buy another engine for $550 + shipping but I can't find out if an engine out of a car with an automatic transmission with fit mine with a manual transmission.

Maybe tomorrow will be a better day. Good thing I don't drink, I would be headed to the liqueur store. LOL


----------



## Brainbucket

BigJim said:


> Too cold to get out in the shop today so I did a lot of research. Seems like the further I go with this build the worse it gets. I have been thinking at least two valve guides will need to be replaced. That is about all I can think of the reason for oil on the valves in two cylinders or maybe the seals are shot. Well I am sure the seals are shot.
> 
> Can you believe the way the factory manual said to remover the valve guides. It said place the head in a tank of oil heated to 230 degrees. Then it takes 2.2 tons of pressure to remove them. There is no way I can heat a tank of oil like that. What will happen if I just drive them out like I use too? Man I hate this car. Now on top of that, I can't find the blame tool to drive the guide out with. One thing after another.
> 
> I can't find new bolts to replace the balance shaft and I found out today a lot of the balance shafts size up and there goes the engine, they say it is fairly common on this engine. How wonderful! A lot of the guys are replacing the balance shaft and leaving the chain off. They said all that happens is the engine will vibrate. I asked how much, so far no one has told me. But there is a car tech who sells plates that will replace the balance shaft for $150. Just put the blame thing back on and leave the chain off.
> 
> One fellow said to put dampers on the engine that are like shocks that will absorb the vibration. For the love of Mike, why did they change the stupid engines with all this junk on then in the first place? Sorry to vent, but man I am batting my head against the wall. The further I go the worse it gets.
> 
> everyone tells me to replace with dealer parts. Check out the price of dealer piston rings, something like $661 just for stupid rings. Not in this life time. They want $110 for one rod. I will build this engine with after market parts and if it comes apart I will junk the dern thing. I can buy another engine for $550 + shipping but I can't find out if an engine out of a car with an automatic transmission with fit mine with a manual transmission.
> 
> Maybe tomorrow will be a better day. Good thing I don't drink, I would be headed to the liqueur store. LOL



This is why I don't build engines for customers. I would take out the valves and check to see if valve and/or guide is bad. Most likely it's the seals. If the guide is bad, call a machine shop and see how much to do a valve job with valve guides. Make sure it's a good machine shop as some of them suck. But this build will be around $1000.00 to $2000.00 with your crank welded and turned and that's if guides are good. If money is and issue, that used engine sounds good. I checked to see if auto cranks are the same as manual cranks. They are not. I looked at the crank at Rock Auto and it doesn't say which one it is. You can look at the rear of the crank to see if it looks like yours. I can't tell. AND I have never heard of heating up a head in oil. This is new to me. Thank god I know a great machine shop. :vs_cool:


----------



## Nealtw

You should be able to get valves with oversized shafts 

https://www.ferrea.com/Nissan-Engine-Valves/p34281


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> This is why I don't build engines for customers. I would take out the valves and check to see if valve and/or guide is bad. Most likely it's the seals. If the guide is bad, call a machine shop and see how much to do a valve job with valve guides. Make sure it's a good machine shop as some of them suck. But this build will be around $1000.00 to $2000.00 with your crank welded and turned and that's if guides are good. If money is and issue, that used engine sounds good. I checked to see if auto cranks are the same as manual cranks. They are not. I looked at the crank at Rock Auto and it doesn't say which one it is. You can look at the rear of the crank to see if it looks like yours. I can't tell. AND I have never heard of heating up a head in oil. This is new to me. Thank god I know a great machine shop. :vs_cool:


I will see if I can get the valves out today and check them. BB I think this crank will clear at .010 on the bad journal. The other journals would clear with just a polishing but they all have to be turned. I checked a couple machine shops in the area and and they will turn the crank for $140 and the other for $130. One gave me a price of around $75-$80 for the mains, rod bearings and thrust bushings. Rockauto has a rod for $47 but I don't know if it is for a spec v. A full set of gaskets are around $100. Haven't checked a new oil pump yet.

I will chance the clutch, pressure plate TOB and flywheel I have now, there is a lot of life left in them. If they go south I can pull the trans without pulling the engine. I have looked everywhere, except the dealer, for the bolts I need so that will cost.

BB I looked at the crank on the automatic and it looks like there is some kind of bearing in the pilot shaft hole. The manual has no pilot shaft bushing or bearing at all in the crank. The entire pilot shaft on the transmission is splined and it looks like about 1/3 of the shaft goes into the crank. Blamedest thing I have ever seen. I guess the pilot shaft is supported inside the transmission, I sure hope it is. There is no sign that the shaft touched the sides in the crank.

Thank you BB, I appreciate you.

Neal, my engine isn't listed there anywhere. That is what I have been running into, they only made this engine for 6 years and nothing will interchange with it. I really do appreciate your help.


----------



## Brainbucket

https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/par...ne_mechanical/piston_crankshaft_flywheel.html


Try this link. The crank is $1200.00 but they offer bolts. Be sure to select engine and car type in the upper left hand corner.:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

Thanks BB, but that crank is way way out of my range. I am just about to the point of giving up on this car. I carried the crank to get it turned today, nope too far out in one journal, they would have to weld it then turn. The fellow wouldn't even give me a price to do that. My only hope is an altima crank will fit or I can find a crank kit (Yeah right) that will fit.

I did find the bolts, rings and that one rod today, from the dealer. $181 for one rod. $5 a bolt is a deal and that is from the dealer. The dealer parts didn't even know what a balance shaft was. Well on to the hunt for another few days.


----------



## BigJim

I found out some more today, the crankshaft and rods in my engine are out of another car of an earlier year which was a low compression engine. They took the crank, reluctor wheel and smaller rods and used the higher compression pistons in this block. I am not real happy about that. I also found out that the balance shaft, which is in the oil pan with the oil, rotates twice as fast as the crank does. The spinning balancer at high rpms beats the oil into foam which will deplete the rod and main bearing of oil. Isn't that great!

The reluctor wheel was not for this ECM so there is why it bogged when it got warmed up, the ECM was confused. Man that really ticks me off, then some tenny bopper dogged the devil out of the car and there is where I am now.

In the photo below, the bottom crank is supposed to be in our engine, Notice it is a full counter weighted crank. The crank at the top is the one some duffus stuck in my engine. It isn't fully counter weighted. Also in the photo of the piston and rod, this is a rod out of a low compression engine. The piston is the right one for this engine.


----------



## Nealtw

Sounds like a junk yard re build, just put in what you got.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> Sounds like a junk yard re build, just put in what you got.


That would be a good description Neal, at least I know where to go from here.


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> That would be a good description Neal, at least I know where to go from here.


I know where I would go. 

I hate to see you lose so much on this POS, but that happens to the best of us. 

Maybe one of those e-bay Se engines would solve your major problems, if you want to spend more money on this . 

Too bad that there are "scabs" still building "parts-mobiles", out there.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> I know where I would go.
> 
> I hate to see you lose so much on this POS, but that happens to the best of us.
> 
> Maybe one of those e-bay Se engines would solve your major problems, if you want to spend more money on this .
> 
> Too bad that there are "scabs" still building "parts-mobiles", out there.
> 
> 
> ED


Ed, just looking at the little car you would think it was perfect. All that glitters is not puddin. lol The little car looked like it had just rolled off the showroom floor, no joke. Everything in the car works...except for the engine. Inside is immaculate, it has the mpg display, a trip planner and all the bells and whistles. The radio is fantastic, but we don't listen to it much.

I plan to pick up a crankshaft kit, that is fully counter weighted, I will use the same pistons, new rings. I am not sure about the rods yet, these are the Altima rods which are not as beefy as the ones that belong in there. I will go back with a new oil pump and a good set of gaskets. The timing chain set up looks perfect so I am good to go there. The water pump is still good for now and the way it is mounted, I can change it out without pulling the engine again.

The clutch set up still has a lot of life in it and I found out I can drop the transmission without jerking the engine again so that is a relief. At least I will know what is in this engine and it should last us the rest of our lives. 

When I bought the car I knew it had a code on it and like an idiot I believed the fellow there. I didn't believe him when he said a little ole lady owned it. I must have looked like I just fell off a turnip truck or something to him. lol

I just didn't realize to what extent he had gone to, to do away with the catalytic converters. Oh and the car has all new Pirelli tires, the front end is tight, the disc brakes are good all the way around. The paint is perfect still. It had those really really bright lights but it don't now, I took them off, I hate them things. 

Ed, the amount we gave for it and as good as everything else is on it, I guess the car is worth the trouble...so far. It will take a while for me to get it all back together but it ain't eatin nothing and it is paid for. We will just buy what I can put on that month. But as you know sometimes there is too much month at the end of the money. lol I have sure learned a lot on this car, I wouldn't be a mechanic for a living now days for anything. These guys have got to have the patients of Job.


----------



## Windows on Wash

What a mess Jim. Holy Smokes did someone stuff about 5lbs of crap in a 2lb bag with that build. 



Kudos to you for figuring the whole thing out. I doubt that anyone would have figured out the operational issues until the thing came apart like you have had to do.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: my local NAPA used to have a machine shop in the back that could supply all the parts like the Crank that you need , at a reasonable cost. 

They might need to call for delivery from the "boondocks", to get something, but they could get stuff like that.

Search your local shops and parts stores for someone like this for the proper crank. 

Persistence will prevail eventually. 

Oh; I know too well about the too long months, and the short money. 

Have you ever wondered about the cost of prosthetics. 

My leg cost $15,000.00, and I was told that optimally it needs refreshed annually. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

Windows on Wash said:


> What a mess Jim. Holy Smokes did someone stuff about 5lbs of crap in a 2lb bag with that build.
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to you for figuring the whole thing out. I doubt that anyone would have figured out the operational issues until the thing came apart like you have had to do.


That is probably what kept the engine from being so loud. lol


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: my local NAPA used to have a machine shop in the back that could supply all the parts like the Crank that you need , at a reasonable cost.
> 
> They might need to call for delivery from the "boondocks", to get something, but they could get stuff like that.
> 
> Search your local shops and parts stores for someone like this for the proper crank.
> 
> Persistence will prevail eventually.
> 
> Oh; I know too well about the too long months, and the short money.
> 
> Have you ever wondered about the cost of prosthetics.
> 
> My leg cost $15,000.00, and I was told that optimally it needs refreshed annually.
> 
> ED


Gooooooood grief Ed, that is unreal, I really hate that you have had more than your share of problems in life. It can be really rough at times.

Didn't do much today, I thought I had found a good engine but the guy had several bad reps so I guess it is back to the drawing board. I have found a place that says the crank kit they sell is for a 2008 SE R Spec V for $310. Man I was sure hoping I could find an engine already put together so I could get this over with. And the beat goes on. lol


----------



## raylo32

Hey, Jim, since the rest of the car is in such good shape why not part it out and then find another car to buy? Just a thought.



BigJim said:


> Gooooooood grief Ed, that is unreal, I really hate that you have had more than your share of problems in life. It can be really rough at times.
> 
> Didn't do much today, I thought I had found a good engine but the guy had several bad reps so I guess it is back to the drawing board. I have found a place that says the crank kit they sell is for a 2008 SE R Spec V for $310. Man I was sure hoping I could find an engine already put together so I could get this over with. And the beat goes on. lol


----------



## Nealtw

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: my local NAPA used to have a machine shop in the back that could supply all the parts like the Crank that you need , at a reasonable cost.
> 
> They might need to call for delivery from the "boondocks", to get something, but they could get stuff like that.
> 
> Search your local shops and parts stores for someone like this for the proper crank.
> 
> Persistence will prevail eventually.
> 
> Oh; I know too well about the too long months, and the short money.
> 
> Have you ever wondered about the cost of prosthetics.
> 
> My leg cost $15,000.00, and I was told that optimally it needs refreshed annually.
> 
> ED


 Ed, I will supply apologies first. Your problem isn't one short leg, it's one leg is too long.


----------



## de-nagorg

Nealtw said:


> Ed, I will supply apologies first. Your problem isn't one short leg, it's one leg is too long.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtR2kGBHEW8


:vs_lol::wheelchair::wheelchair::tt2::tt2::tt2::tt2::tt2:

That must be it.


ED


----------



## BigJim

This is getting to be a real drag, I can not find a crankshaft for this blame engine. Oh I found a bunch that will fit but not the orignal crank. I have found a few but for the love of Mike, I could buy another car for what they want for one.

There have been engines in good shape that say they are SE R Spec V engines, then say it came out of a car with a CVT in it. Nope, it is not a Spec V if it had a CVT transmission in it. SE R Spec V engines ONLY had a 6 speed stick, none other. The Spec V crankshaft has 8 counter weights, all other Nissan engines with an CVT had 4 counter weights.

I will not hook the balance shaft back up on this engine because it is known to freeze up and blow the engine down the tubes. The 4 counter weighted cranks would shake the car way to heavy where the 8 counter weighted crank won't. I have looked everywhere trying to find the right crank that I can afford. Any suggestions.


----------



## Nealtw

So that's the $1200 crank?


----------



## de-nagorg

I did a quick looksee over at e-bay, there are a couple that are swearing they are for the se-r but only have 4 counter weights, so they are mistaken, or just lying. 

I can only suggest that you keep on looking, there has to be a new one out there, at the price that you are willing to pay.

It's :vs_mad: sometimes, but I know from experience that what we seek is somewhere.


ED


----------



## Nealtw

Have you looked into used ones, if they don't have one listed they can still do a search of there member companies


http://www.car-part.com/


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> So that's the $1200 crank?


That is the dealer crank. I called the dealer and they didn't have a clue about the spec V crank, they said they didn't even have a picture of one. Kinda makes me wonder where they get these guys from. I talked to one dealer parts guy and he didn't know what the balance shaft was. It is amazing how many people don't really know their job.

Ed, I am not trying to find a new crank, I will take a used one that even needs welding up to turn. I went through 66 full pages on ebay today and not one SE R Spec V crank. There is a SE R engine but it has a CVT transmission hung on it. But I have to have the SE R Spec V, that Spec V is the hard one to find. 

I really don't know which way to go now. The 4 counter weight cranks are for CVT transmissions. There is nothing in the pilot hole of the crank on the 4 counter weighted crank to support the pilot shaft of the transmission. I don't have a clue if the 8 CW one has anything to support the pilot shaft or not, I have never seen the 8 CW crank in person. The Spec V was only made for 6 years and it is said it is next to bullet proof. It must be, because if it weren't there would be at least one or two cranks out there somewhere.

I just hate to hook that balance shaft back up knowing it is known for failing. And especially since metal specks have gone all through this engine for a while.

Neal, I appreciate the link, all they offer is for a Nissan Sentra, which is rather generic. Thanks any way I really do appreciate your help. 

In the photo, that is not the block, it is the main caps, have you ever seen anything like that? lol Speaking of main caps, I saw on ebay where some one was selling a set of regular main caps. That is totally crazy, they would have to have the block line bored which would cost more than it is worth. lol


----------



## Brainbucket

https://www.partshotlines.com/


Try this link.


----------



## de-nagorg

Here is a link to similar cars for sale across the U S.

To give you an idea what they sell for, and if you have spent less after all repairs, you can say that you win.

https://www.carfax.com/Used-Nissan-Sentra-SE-R-Spec-V_t1926 

ED


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> https://www.partshotlines.com/
> 
> 
> Try this link.


Thanks BB, I just checked, they don't have one. I appreciate it anyway.

Ed even after rebuilding the engine, I will still be at least $2000 under that price. And this car is every bit as nice or better than that one, or will be after I get the engine back in.

I talked to a fellow who does nothing but Nissans and the SE R Spec Vs today and asked him if he knew where I might find one of those cranks. He said they are extremely hard to find. He didn't tell me anything I didn't know there. lol

He did tell me that I could go back with the same type crank as I have now, which makes me happy. I asked if the engine would shake like crazy if I disabled the balance shaft. I haven't heard back from him on that one yet. I know the engine will shake but if it isn't too bad, I am fixin to order another crank and bearings and put that little engine back together.


----------



## BigJim

My wife wants the engine done. So I went ahead and ordered a crank, rod and main bearings, rings and rod, oil pump, full set of gaskets, valve guide seals, head bolt set, rear main seal, two lower ball joints ( I busted the rubber on both of them), I am sure I left something out but I am ready to put this back together. 

I never will find the Spec V crank. This engine ran with the same type of crank in it so hopefully it will do good. Until I hear other wise, I will go ahead and hook the blame balance shaft back up. I sure don't want to though.

I appreciate all the help, information and encouragement from you fellows, thank you. I will let you know as I get things done on this engine.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: I had never heard of an extra balance shaft apparatus in a crankcase, and I still "know nuthin"" about one. 

I have no printed reference material for this year and make vehicle to do research on it. 

All I offer is advice to replace every bearing, bushing, or replaceable component in it, that way you start with all new parts of it, and hopefully it will last until long after you have became an ex owner of this car. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: I had never heard of an extra balance shaft apparatus in a crankcase, and I still "know nuthin"" about one.
> 
> I have no printed reference material for this year and make vehicle to do research on it.
> 
> All I offer is advice to replace every bearing, bushing, or replaceable component in it, that way you start with all new parts of it, and hopefully it will last until long after you have became an ex owner of this car.
> 
> 
> ED


Thanks Ed, I am doing just that, I am replacing every seal in the engine. I want this engine to be totally free of even one spec of grit or metal speck at all. I have a pressure washer and every vain, bolt hole and crevice will be cleaned with engine cleaner, pressure washed and every thing blown out with air. 

When I put an engine back together I want everything as clean as when I eat, no dirt grim or contaminates at all.

Ed the balance shaft is a counter weight that is totally separate from the engine. This one has two shafts with counter weights just as a crank has counter weights. It is bolted to the bottom of the engine and sits totally submerged in the oil. It is powered by a small chain thet looks just like the timing chain except it is much shorter. The chain does have timing marks on it as does the marks for a timing chain. 

If the balancer is not in time with the engine it will shake the fool out of the engine, much like a ROS sander does. The balance shaft will rotate twice to the cranks one revelation. Since the balance shaft spins twice as fast as the engine, it will be spinning 10,000 rpm when the engine is turning 5,000 rpm.

The purpose of the BS is to remove all shaking from the engine and I will say it for sure did, you could stand a nickle up edgewise on the engine, it ran just that smooth. Since the BS is spinning so fast, if the oil gets a little low the BS will beat the fool out of the oil and cause it to foam. When this happens, oil is mixed with air and it is pushed throughout the engine starving it of as much oil as is designed for that engine. This can cause bearing failure and it can cause the BS to lock up and there goes the engine.

I read where it was common for the BS to fail in these engine. That is the reason I looked so hard for the crankshaft with the 8 counter weights, the spec V crank. All other 4 banger Nissan cranks have 4 counter weights. I am really reluctant to hook the BS back up because of this, but I can't find anywhere that tells me the engine won't shake like crazy without it.

I hope I can find some information about that before I get to that part of the build. I still have to go to the dealer and buy new bolts for the flywheel, balance shaft, and reluctor wheel. I will have to drill the bolts off the reluctor wheel, these bolts are locked on with the permanent loctite. I bought new Torx Plus drivers for removing it, I also bought a new hand held impact driver. The bolt head rounded out. No telling what the dealer will want for the bolts. 

Now get this, the dealer only sells head bolts in lots of 8, they don't sell loose bolts. There are 10 head bolts, figures doesn't it. That is just sorry and low down. They are out of sight already, then have to buy 8 more that you will never use. 

I will get on the stick and get all the parts cleaned and ready to go back together. I will let you know as I go how it is going. 

It has been so long I forgot how to read .0122, had to take a refresher course. lol Trying to find the tolerances in the factory manual is like pulling teeth. I still haven't found what the skirt to cylinder wall clearance is on the Spec V, or the ring gap that is in specs.


----------



## Brainbucket

What about the reluctor ring issue?


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: Maybe while you are at the Dealer looking for bolts, you can go out to the service area, and consult with their oldest most experienced tech, and get some input on that BS, that you speak of. 

Sounds to me like a nightmare contraption conceived in a lab, and not a practical "real life" apparatus. 

Something Rube Goldberg would dream up.

Afterall it creates oil cavitation, which is an engines worst enemy. 

I wish you good luck on it, no matter which way that you decide to go with it. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

Brainbucket said:


> What about the reluctor ring issue?


The new crank does have the 4 bolt holes for the Reluctor wheel so I will drill the heads off the bolts of the Reluctor wheel and buy new ones for the new crank. The bad thing is, you can't pry on the Reluctor wheel or bump or it will warp the wheel. That wheel is so close tolerance that a few thousands warp in the wheel will wipe out the pickup deal. Man I hate these engines.

Also, there is a dowel hole in the crank and the Reluctor wheel. You have to supply the dowel yourself, as there is not one there. There has to be a dowel to line the wheel up before tightening the bolts. That wheel can not be off even so minutely or it will effect the running of the engine. It is just that close of tolerance. Don't you just love it. 

If the wheel has a few thousands wobble, it will wipe out the Crank Sensor Trigger Conversion module and you can kiss $275 good bye, and that is just for the trigger, not to mention having to tear the engine down and replace the wheel. The wheel is not cheap either. Don't bump that wheel. lol 

Come to think about it, I haven't seen that blame module yet, I better be looking for that thing.


----------



## BigJim

Just talked to a nissan mechanic and he told me to look on the back side of the engine just above the crank sensor and see what the vin# is there and what other large letters are there. I looked and told him what the letters were and he told me that was not a SE R SpecV block, it was a 2007-2011 Altima block. Someone had used the pistons out of a SE R Spec V in the Altima block. Just my blame luck. 

I went to the dealer today and ordered the 16 bolts I needed to put the engine back together, they charged me $146. Good grief, no way could I afford any other parts from there. A fellow that was beside me ordered two radiator hoes, $36 each, can you believe that. Man talk about greedy.

Well, my dilemma is what it is, I will just deal with the hand I have been dealt and go on. I hope to get back out in the shop tomorrow and get something done. :wallbash:


----------



## de-nagorg

Well that just stinks like a skunk.

The wrong engine, then you get robbed by Nissan , for bolts. 

I know that you searched and searched, and I still believe that they are out there somewhere. 

Did you get a definitive answer on weather you can leave that BS out, from the Mechanic?


ED


----------



## Nealtw

de-nagorg said:


> Well that just stinks like a skunk.
> 
> The wrong engine, then you get robbed by Nissan , for bolts.
> 
> I know that you searched and searched, and I still believe that they are out there somewhere.
> 
> Did you get a definitive answer on weather you can leave that BS out, from the Mechanic?
> 
> 
> ED


I would think the balance shaft(s) would have oil supplies and all that so just leaving it out would not work.


----------



## BigJim

I never have Ed, I sure wish they would tell me. One fellow said he cut the chain on his and used engine mount inserts and it wasn't too bad. I don't have a clue what engine mount inserts are. It does look like the out of who doo shaking would wear something out quick. Maybe I am over thinking this but I just don't want to have to go back in that engine. It is hard enough the first time.

I just looked up motor mount inserts, sounds reasonable to knock some shaking out. Why do they call them motor mounts when it is an engine. lol


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> I would think the balance shaft(s) would have oil supplies and all that so just leaving it out would not work.


Neal, the balance shaft is submerged totally in the oil. It does have oil ports. No I can't take it off, I would have to leave it in place and just leave the drive chain off. I still haven't made up my mind if I am going to put the chain back on or not yet. I am afraid not to hook it up, and I am afraid to hook it back up. If that shaft locks the engine is gone and these balance shafts are bad to lock up. If I don't hook it up the engine is going to shake, unless I put torque dampers and motor mount inserts in, as I just read.

It isn't an easy thing to hook back up after the engine is in place. I would have to jerk the engine back out and pull the timing chain to put that chain back on. The balance drive chain is behind the timing chain.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Neal, the balance shaft is submerged totally in the oil. It does have oil ports. No I can't take it off, I would have to leave it in place and just leave the drive chain off. I still haven't made up my mind if I am going to put the chain back on or not yet. I am afraid not to hook it up, and I am afraid to hook it back up. If that shaft locks the engine is gone and these balance shafts are bad to lock up. If I don't hook it up the engine is going to shake, unless I put torque dampers and motor mount inserts in, as I just read.
> 
> It isn't an easy thing to hook back up after the engine is in place. I would have to jerk the engine back out and pull the timing chain to put that chain back on. The balance drive chain is behind the timing chain.


I can't imagine why they would lock up.


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> I never have Ed, I sure wish they would tell me. One fellow said he cut the chain on his and used engine mount inserts and it wasn't too bad. I don't have a clue what engine mount inserts are. It does look like the out of who doo shaking would wear something out quick. Maybe I am over thinking this but I just don't want to have to go back in that engine. It is hard enough the first time.
> 
> I just looked up motor mount inserts, sounds reasonable to knock some shaking out. Why do they call them motor mounts when it is an engine. lol


The same reason they call Harleys, and their cousins, Motorcycles. 

Ordinary people are always confused anyway, and don't know the difference between an ENGINE, and a MOTOR. :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


ED


----------



## de-nagorg

You may have to modify a different brands "motor mount", to fit your application, but as long as it bolts to your engine proper, and to your chassis proper it will absorb most of the vibration created.

It's going to take experimenting to do that, and if you have not done it before you will need time to think it through. 

Often you will add a plate between the mount and engine to have something to bolt it to. 

ED


----------



## raylo32

Man, I feel you pain, Jim. Just one comment for now on the balance shaft. Lots of engines (motors??), especially larger 4 bangers, have balance shafts. This isn't anything strange or exotic and I don't understand all the angst surrounding it. I would think the thing would run like a paint shaker without it and would be more of a risk than this assembly failing. To my mind this is the least of your issues. Just make sure the bearings and chain are good.


----------



## BigJim

I have been reading more on the balance shaft and folks are saying they have seen more engines destroyed by failing balance shafts than not. I keep going back to the really loud noise the engine was making and I can not find anywhere in the engine that would make that loud noise. I am beginning to think the BS was starting to lock up.

I know the engine was doing some really heavy knocking getting the car back home. What has me concerned is the sound. If you can imagine an engine with regular lifters, like in a 327 Chevy or a V8 Ford. Now imagine that one of the lifters had worn so bad it was hanging on the high point of the cam causing a noise so loud it sounded like it was going to snap a cam at any moment. This was not a constant sound but more of a random sound. It actually sounded like a cam was fixing to break any moment. Like the lifter was knocking off a chunk of the high point of the cam, it was that loud.

The only thing I can see inside the engine is the rod wore totally out. What has me mystified is the bottom half of the thrust bearing was gone on both sides, like missing. The thrust bearing or bushing in this engine is made up of 4 parts. I haven't looked to see how they are held in place, but I will. I don't see how that could cause that kind of noise. I am going to check the balance shaft today and see if it is making the noise.

The more I think about it, the more I want to leave the drive chain off that balance shaft. I also read that the movement of the crankshaft was the same with or without the BS, the only difference is that you just don't feel the vibration of the engine inside of the car. The vibration is still there, but with the balance shaft, you just don't feel it.

EDIT** I just checked and the thrust bearings are only two halves so forget about what I said about part of the bearings missing, they aren't missing.


----------



## Brainbucket

I have dealt with balance shafts on multiple engines. I would inspect the balance shaft for clearance problems. If everything is nice and tight, reinstall it. If it has any slack what so ever, repair it if possible or replace it. It's there for a reason. I wouldn't 'cut the chain'. If you do, your gonna have to deal with the tensioner spiting the piston out and having a major internal oil leak which would effect oil pressure. When I searched for your engine, there were boat loads of Altima engines for cheep. Now that you know what your dealing with, you can narrow your search. I still have a problem with the reluctor wheel issue.:vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

BB, I value your opinion highly, now I have to rethink the balance shaft. 

You are right, there are altima engines everywhere to be had now that I know. The down side is I already ordered the parts to rebuild. 

I hate prepping everything to get ready to rebuild. Especially cleaning the ring lands. I have a ring land cleaner but I have always had better luck with a broken ring. One thing to remember is wrap the broken ring with a rag, if that thing is worn out it will cut the fool out of your hand. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

Can you return the rebuild parts unopened, and purchase a good engine instead.

This saves you money, and time, and frustration. 

I agree with Brain, about that shaft, it was put there for a purpose, and disconnecting it will be more hassle than it's worth. 

So either rebuild it also, or as I am suggesting now, return all the new parts, and get a ready to go engine from a decent supplier.

And get this headache done with.


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Can you return the rebuild parts unopened, and purchase a good engine instead.
> 
> This saves you money, and time, and frustration.
> 
> I agree with Brain, about that shaft, it was put there for a purpose, and disconnecting it will be more hassle than it's worth.
> 
> So either rebuild it also, or as I am suggesting now, return all the new parts, and get a ready to go engine from a decent supplier.
> 
> And get this headache done with.
> 
> 
> ED


I am with you buddy, I want this behind me and soon.


----------



## de-nagorg

BigJim said:


> I am with you buddy, I want this behind me and soon.


I took a break from the interweb, and thought of another argument for the just getting a good engine and getting on with the show.

You have stated often that you wish that you did not have to buy Premium Fuel for this car.

Here is your opportunity to do just that, put a regular engine in it and be done. 

Besides you have hinted at being in your mid 80's, so aren't you a bit old to be out there racing the "Teeny-boppers"?:devil3:

Yeah I know how hard it is to give up the "need for speed", I still find myself zipping along at over 100, too much.

And keep telling myself, it ain't that important to get there early. 


ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> I took a break from the interweb, and thought of another argument for the just getting a good engine and getting on with the show.
> 
> You have stated often that you wish that you did not have to buy Premium Fuel for this car.
> 
> Here is your opportunity to do just that, put a regular engine in it and be done.
> 
> Besides you have hinted at being in your mid 80's, so aren't you a bit old to be out there racing the "Teeny-boppers"?:devil3:
> 
> Yeah I know how hard it is to give up the "need for speed", I still find myself zipping along at over 100, too much.
> 
> And keep telling myself, it ain't that important to get there early.
> 
> 
> ED


80s, nope, I am 76 still old though. lol Naw I don't need the speed anymore, just get to and from is good enough for me. I know, I am wishy washy, but I have done made up my mind to rebuild this sucker. 

Check out the top compression ring, bends easy as wire. Looks like this one was run hot. I already checked the head, it isn't warped so that is one thing in my favor. The pistons cleaned up really easy, hasn't been too long since someone cleaned them. Got the bolts out of the reluctor wheel and some parts came in today. The rest should be here in a day or so.

Ed, I forgot to say yesterday that I have the highest of respect for your and Neal's advice also, really appreciate your help.


----------



## de-nagorg

Dang, I have never seen a compression ring do that, I have snapped a few off trying to get them on the "slug", but if they bend that easy without breaking, they have lost their TEMPER, and are useless.

It's a wonder how this was even running, and giving you such good compression as you stated in the beginning. 

My memory ain't so good after that Brain Injury that I suffered as a 23 year old. I was sure that you had said once that you were older. 

My apology for insinuating that you were going through a second juvenile delinquent stage. :devil3:

And for the record , I turned 65 at the last national birthday. 

You are as stubborn as I am, once I decide to do something, I do it or "bust". 

I truly hope that you get all the garbage that you bought with this car worked out of it before you " bust". 

I'm sure that Neil appreciates your kind words as much as I do, I am glad to be able to share the vast knowledge that I have accumulated over the decades with someone that can and will use for good.

ED


----------



## Nealtw

My experience mostly old and outdated. For years I have wondered how they got the shake out of a 4 cylinder. Now that I understand balance shafts, I like the idea, i imagine they eat horsepower but make a much smoother engine.


----------



## de-nagorg

Nealtw said:


> My experience mostly old and outdated. For years I have wondered how they got the shake out of a 4 cylinder. Now that I understand balance shafts, I like the idea, i imagine they eat horsepower but make a much smoother engine.


There was a guy here that took an older Chevy 350 V8, and somehow sawed the right half off the block, and made himself a 4 cylinder engine for his VEGA dirt track racer. 

It did not shake or falter, ran like a custom built race car. 

And you are probably right, moving that extra weight, has to sap power from those underpowered little engines. 

That is probably why so many have the Turbo attached to them, more weight to move, but pressing more air/fuel mixture in the cylinder to compensate. 

Just give me a 1960 V8, tuned proper and kept in tune please.

Much simpler, same power, almost equal economy.


ED


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> My experience mostly old and outdated. For years I have wondered how they got the shake out of a 4 cylinder. Now that I understand balance shafts, I like the idea, i imagine they eat horsepower but make a much smoother engine.


Same here Neal, I am an old 60s mechanic, built a bunch of the old muscle cars. Those cars were a piece of cake compared to today's engines. I would never make it in today's mechanical world, way way too slow.

Ed, I think the engine has been over heated to make a ring that soft. It is weird, the secondary ring still had it's temper and the edges were sharp as a knife. The compression ring wasn't sharp at all. Usually when an engine over heats that much, the head will be warped, this one isn't, I already checked it.

Most of the parts will be here tomorrow but I got to go to the VA so tomorrow is pretty well shot. I sure wish I had all the tools I gave away because I thought I would never need them again.

Oh, the balance shaft takes between 8 and 15 hp to use. I thought it would turn easy, it doesn't, it is hard to turn. The balance shaft doesn't stop the stress on the engine from shaking, the engine will still stress from shaking. All the balance shaft does is counter act the shaking to the car frame, it really serves no purpose other than comfort from engine vibration. I'm goin to bed.


----------



## Brainbucket

Since this engine was slapped together, I suspect it's a moly ring or just a cheap ring. Definitely not a cast ring. :vs_cool:


----------



## BigJim

My parts came in today except for the 4 reluctor bolts. The down side is they sent a crankshaft with the CVT insert in the pilot shaft hole. Does that insert come out like a pilot shaft bearing. It feels like it is solid all the way back to the bottom. I hope it will come out or I will have to ship it back. 

I use wet toilet paper to get the bushings and bearing out, I use to use grease but it is way too messy. lol

Check out the reluctor wheel bolts, the four of them cost $49.10 with tax, they sell them in lots of five. I had to buy 5 other bolts just for one bolt. I don't like dealer parts.

BB the rings I got are cast not the cheap ones.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: did you try a bolt warehouse, nearby for those. 

They often have the same exact ones here for a great price, not robbery price. 

Get a magnifying glass and examine that bushing area on the crankshaft, to see if the bushing is removable. 

It should have a faint line running the full circumference of the end, if it was pressed in, if not , then you will need to send it back, or have a reputable machine shop bore the end to accommodate your needs.



ED


----------



## BigJim

Ed I felt inside about 3/4 of an inch there is a lip, very slight but a lip which I would guess to be about 1/16 inch. I have a slide hammer some where around here, I hope it has the ledge on the puller so I can try to jerk it out. If not maybe I can rent one. I just can't seem to catch a break. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

Strap that crank down solid to a bench, before doing that.

I'd hate to hear that you jerked it off the bench, and it hit the floor. :surprise:

They crack easy, if thrown around. 

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Strap that crank down solid to a bench, before doing that.
> 
> I'd hate to hear that you jerked it off the bench, and it hit the floor. :surprise:
> 
> They crack easy, if thrown around.
> 
> ED


Now that would just be the straw that.... really ticked me off. lol I thought about pulling that insert after I put the crank in the block, but that would put some stress on the thrust bearing for sure. Too my surprise, the thrust bearing was included with the main bearings. Nice.

It really ticks me that I have to go to all the blame trouble to pull that insert out of the pilot shaft hole when I thought I ordered the crank for a stick shift, but I may not have. Oh, on the boxes of bearings and gaskets, it says they will not take them back if opened. I can understand why, but how am I supposed to see if any are missing if I don't open the box. lol


----------



## BigJim

I wouldn't be a mechanic now days for any amount of money. I just thought a mechanic charged too much. I now change my mine, they don't charge near enough. Good grief, I have never seen anything like this in my entire life. I cleaned the block and some of the parts today and dropped the crank and main bearings, well the top half of the bearings. I put the reluctor wheel, or pick up wheel, or the crankshaft position sensor wheel, all the same thing but call it what you like. 

I have never been as frustrated in my life as I am with this engine. I got all the parts from the dealer that I just had too. The dowel pin to set the pick up wheel dead in place was supposed to be in these parts from the dealer. Well I got A dowel pin but it is by far not the right one. The hole in the crankshaft is round, the hole in the wheel is oblong. The dowel I got from the dealer will not fit either hole at all.

What I have found out is this pick up wheel controls the spark to the plugs, the firing of the injectors so it has to be dead on. It can not be off .0001 of an inch or it will hit the crankshaft sensor and tear it up and the car will not fire up. If the hole in the crank and in the wheel were the same, a simple dowel would be all that is needed to set the wheel where it must be. 

Since the hole on the wheel is oblong, the sideways movement of the wheel can be set with a simple dowel, that is the right size. But since the hole is elongated on the wheel, the simple dowel will let the wheel move up or down at least .0625 of an inch. You can clearly see the crankshaft sensor will be toast and the car will not run. How on this earth am I going to find that dern dowel?

As I said before the engine is not a spec V like it is supposed to be, it is just an altima engine that someone has thrown some bogus parts in. The pistons, as I was informed today are not high compression at all, just plain Altima pistons. I am glad the pistons are low compression. But Why would any body make that hole elongated? Any ideas where I can find that dowel? It sure isn't on the internet.


----------



## de-nagorg

Maybe that is the incorrect wheel for this, they might have used something from an entire different vehicle. 

See if you can get a proper wheel from a reliable source. 

So you were running Premium, when you did not need to?

I would be looking for whoever scammed you or the dealer where you bought this thing from, and "LEAN" on them a bit. :devil3:

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Maybe that is the incorrect wheel for this, they might have used something from an entire different vehicle.
> 
> See if you can get a proper wheel from a reliable source.
> 
> So you were running Premium, when you did not need to?
> 
> I would be looking for whoever scammed you or the dealer where you bought this thing from, and "LEAN" on them a bit. :devil3:
> 
> ED


Ed, just a guess, but I think the wheel is off the Spec V and that specific wheel has to be on the crank because the ECM is set up for a SE R Spec V. I think they made it so they could not be interchanged. But guess what, I think I have figured a way to center that wheel.

If I take a piece of angle aluminum and clamp it to the block so it is in the center of the wheel edge and just touches the wheel edge. I can rotate the crank and if the wheel touches the angle aluminum, I will back the angle aluminum away until it just barely touches the wheel as I continue to rotate the crank. 

I will then rotate the crank to the position where the wheel is furtherest away from the angle aluminum. I will loosen the bolts and push the wheel 1/2 the distance that the wheel is away from the angle. I will move the angle back so it just barely touches the wheel and rotate until I get it so the wheel just barely touches the angle when rotating the crank all the way around. that should be dead centered, don't you think it would.

Take a look at the photos, see the elongated hole in the wheel? If you look close you can see the round hole in the crank through the elongated hole. The second photo is the round hole that is in both cranks.


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: That sounds feasible.

And if you cannot get the "alignment tool" angle aluminum, to touch the wheel, try using feeler gauges, to span the space, and when you get the wheel correctly aligned, you are done with that part. 

Maybe you are correct, that they used the wheel for the V.

Have you seen a proper V crankshaft end to see if it has an elongated pin there?

That hole does not look " rednecked ", so it must be factory.

ED


----------



## BigJim

de-nagorg said:


> Jim: That sounds feasible.
> 
> And if you cannot get the "alignment tool" angle aluminum, to touch the wheel, try using feeler gauges, to span the space, and when you get the wheel correctly aligned, you are done with that part.
> 
> Maybe you are correct, that they used the wheel for the V.
> 
> Have you seen a proper V crankshaft end to see if it has an elongated pin there?
> 
> That hole does not look " rednecked ", so it must be factory.
> 
> ED


Ed the only thing I have seen that is Spec V is the crank. And guess what, I looked til I was blue in the face for a spec V crank, yesterday one just popped right out at me, it was for sale and a lot cheaper than the one I bought. The up side on the crank I bought, no core charge. Just my luck. lol

I will let you know how it goes trying to center the wheel.


----------



## Nealtw

@*BigJim* have I got this right, the hole I have numbered 1 is the alignment hole and 2 is the bolt to hold it there. You would think the bolts had a tight fitting shoulder or a tapper to make it center properly.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> @*BigJim* have I got this right, the hole I have numbered 1 is the alignment hole and 2 is the bolt to hold it there. You would think the bolts had a tight fitting shoulder or a tapper to make it center properly.


Number 1 photo is the alignment hole with the wheel in place. The second photo is the same alignment hole in between the two larger holes. The larger holes are bolt holes. 

I would have thought the bolts would be made to center the wheel also but they sure don't, you can move that wheel pretty good with the bolts finger tight. I just don't understand why they made it like that.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Number 1 photo is the alignment hole with the wheel in place. The second photo is the same alignment hole in between the two larger holes. The larger holes are bolt holes.
> 
> I would have thought the bolts would be made to center the wheel also but they sure don't, you can move that wheel pretty good with the bolts finger tight. I just don't understand why they made it like that.


And how did it work on the old shaft? It sounds like you need a wheel that matches the shaft?


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> And how did it work on the old shaft? It sounds like you need a wheel that matches the shaft?


Neal, I don't know how they did it but both of these crankshafts are exactly the same. How they ever got the wheel centered is beyond me. I am not sure but I think this wheel is for a spec V crank and this crank is an altima crank. I need to see if I can run with an Altima crank with a spec V ECM. Thanks for moving me in that direction.

Edit** I just tried finding the wheels to compare, nope, didn't find a single wheel for either engine.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Neal, I don't know how they did it but both of these crankshafts are exactly the same. How they ever got the wheel centered is beyond me. I am not sure but I think this wheel is for a spec V crank and this crank is an altima crank. I need to see if I can run with an Altima crank with a spec V ECM. Thanks for moving me in that direction.


Having the same one on the old crank still doesn't make it right.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Neal, I don't know how they did it but both of these crankshafts are exactly the same. How they ever got the wheel centered is beyond me. I am not sure but I think this wheel is for a spec V crank and this crank is an altima crank. I need to see if I can run with an Altima crank with a spec V ECM. Thanks for moving me in that direction.
> 
> Edit** I just tried finding the wheels to compare, nope, didn't find a single wheel for either engine.



If you measure the shoulder on the crank and the hole in the plate. Half the difference would be shim size and 3 shims would center you.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> Having the same one on the old crank still doesn't make it right.


I agree, but I don't know if any other wheel will work with my ECM


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: Do you know someone that is a machinist, or know a good machine shop , that you trust?

Have a pin made for that thing, using the dimensions in the crank, and the oval dimension for the wheel.

Built perfectly centered on the new pin, for the ends.

This pin will be a perfect alignment for the wheel to bolt on. 

Any decent machine shop can do this from a drawing on graph paper. 

It might cost several $ for the pin, but worth it, when you chance knocking that sensor to oblivion. 

Maybe " *******" used a removable pin, and took it out after getting the wheel bolted up. 


ED


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> I agree, but I don't know if any other wheel will work with my ECM


Can't even find a good picture or information. :vs_mad:I did find where is said not to remove it unless you really have to. It is more like a non part that should have come with the crankshaft.


----------



## BigJim

Ed, that thought has popped in my head, I can get side to side centering with a drift pin, but the up and down is where I would have to have a gauge on each side as I turned the crank to be able to center it dead on. It has to be almost dead perfect or it will hit the crank sensor. And that thing is what actually times the spark and injectors, well part of what times everything, it sends signals to the ECM as does the cam sensor. I hope I spelled everything right, I can't find my glasses. lol

Neal, that is one thing that really frustrates me to tears, I can't find anything showing anything about this at all. I am so far behind times I had to ask what it meant to torque the rod bolts to 29 ft lb then 0 N-m then 14 lb ft. Never done it that way before. I never heard of lb ft before, seems a little crazy, why didn't they just say tork to 29 ft lb then back to zero and then final torq to 14 ft lb instead of lb ft.

I just hope this new rod I bought has been worked to specs.

Now get this, I have to torq all the bolts completely within 5 minutes after I put the gasket maker on:

7. Tighten lower cylinder block bolts in the numerical order as shown and according to the following steps:

a. Apply new engine oil to threads and seat surfaces of the bolts. 

b. Tighten bolts No. 11 - 22 only in the order as shown, to specification below.

Step 1, bolts 11 - 22 only : 25.1 N·m (2.6 kg-m, 19 ft-lb)

c. Tighten bolts No. 1 - 10 only in the order as shown, to specification below.

Step 2, bolts 1 - 10 only : 39.2 N·m (4.0 kg-m, 29 ft-lb)

d. Tighten bolts No. 1 - 10 only in the order as shown, to specification below.

Step 3, bolts 1 - 10 only : 60°degrees rotation

CAUTION: Check tightening angle. Do not make judgment by visual inspection. 

• Wipe off completely any protruding Silicone RTV Sealant on rear oil seal installation surface and the exterior of engine.

• Check crankshaft side clearance. 
Refer to EM-82, "Inspection After Disassembly"

. • After installing the bolts, make sure that the crankshaft can be rotated smoothly by hand. 

I can't copy the diagram of the bottom half of the block. The main caps aren't individual like a regular engine, they are all one piece, which is the bottom half of the block, then there is another part about the same size that bolts to the bottom of that plus the balance shaft then the oil pan. 

I don't think Japanese people like us. lol


----------



## de-nagorg

Jim: in step 7 a, I question the wisdom of oiling any threads of a bolt.

If that bolt is going into a BLIND HOLE, you will be just compressing any oil that might pool and drip into the bottom. 

And the bolt will never get tight. and your plastiguage will never spread correct. Been there done that. :vs_mad:


ED


----------



## BigJim

ED I agree, they must to have never had a bolt build up hydraulics. I still haven't figured out how to get the pilot insert out of the crank yet. I need to do some checking to see if i have something in my slide hammer box that will work.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> ED I agree, they must to have never had a bolt build up hydraulics. I still haven't figured out how to get the pilot insert out of the crank yet. I need to do some checking to see if i have something in my slide hammer box that will work.


 Is there enough to run a tap in there and then pull it with a bolt


----------



## de-nagorg

Nealtw said:


> Is there enough to run a tap in there and then pull it with a bolt


Good idea: But those bushings are usually HARDENED and built to not wear with the shaft in it. 

It might not be thread-able.

Most slide hammer kits come with "fingers" for inside and outside pulling.


ED


----------



## BigJim

I think I have the reluctor wheel solved. I tried several drill bits to see if any of them fit that centering dowel hole. To my surprise one did fit perfect. I also used a center punch and clamped it to be block and used it as a guage to make sure the wheel was dead centered. It worked like a champ. The wheel is history. I can't be off more than a really thin hair if that. One thing I noticed is one or two of the nipples, or what ever you call them, were just a little longer than the rest. On to building the block, if I can just find one blame bolt that is missing. lol


----------



## Nealtw

Likely #1 TDC.


----------



## BigJim

Now that does make good sense, I never thought about that, you are probably right, I will check and see if it is. Thanks Neal, I appreciate it a lot.


----------



## BigJim

Question, man I hate not remembering stuff. I know my engine turns clockwise. Now is it clockwise if you are standing in front of it or behind it. I need to turn the engine over a couple of times and I can't turn it backwards. Ok I know, how could I forget something like that.

I laid off the build for a while but I got most of it back together now. Another question, how do I prime this crazy looking oil pump? I know how to prime an oil pump in an engine back in the old days. But these are weird. Someone said stuff it full of Vaseline but where do you stuff it. Hmmm let me rephrase that, where do you... oh never mind, no matter how I put it, it doesn't sound right. lol I'll look on youtube. :smile:

It has been one thing after another on this engine. I don't work on it very long at a time, you probable guess that. lol This engine block is in three different pieces. When I was putting the second part of the engine on, which has all the main caps made into it. The factory manual said to put the sealer on and I had to torque the bolts in 5 minutes ( 22 of them) Torq to something lie 29 foot pounds, back off to zero the retorque to 39 foot pounds + 90 degrees. I got down to the last three and the battery in my torque wrench died. I just guessed on the last three until I got new batteries and retorqued them. I hope it don't leak there.

Oh well everything else has been a bird dog anyway, why should it go smooth now. lol.


----------



## Nealtw

You have oiled all your parts when putting them together. before you start the engine run the starter motor until you have oil pressure is all we used to do, but I found this. 

The front of the engine, should be clockwise.


----------



## BigJim

Thanks Neal, I appreciate you going to the trouble to look that video up.

Here is the oil pump on my engine it is crazy, it runs off the crankshaft.


----------



## Nealtw

BigJim said:


> Thanks Neal, I appreciate you going to the trouble to look that video up.
> 
> Here is the oil pump on my engine it is crazy, it runs off the crankshaft.


I always left a valve cover off and cranked the engine with out spark until oil showed up.


----------



## BigJim

Nealtw said:


> I always left a valve cover off and cranked the engine with out spark until oil showed up.


That is what I will do also. I got to thinking that the pump doesn't sit in the oil pan so the oil has to drain out each time the engine shuts off. I will pour some oil in the pump and see if that will help keep the suction it needs to work. Thanks again Neal, I appreciate it.

I have a few areas I am concerned about this build. The one that bothers me most is the cam journals. They were scored so I polished them up almost mirror looking. I checked the valve clearance and maybe one or two valves are .0001 sloppy which I am not concerned about. The cam journals and that rod journal took the worse beating of all on the way getting back home, especially since there was no rod bearing left at all so oil pressure was almost dead.

The worse case there would be replacing the head which is not cheap and I can do that without pulling the engine. I sure wouldn't want to but.

The other place is the flywheel, I am concerned about it, but I don't have the money to replace it right now so I will just hold my breath.


----------

