# Fill for timber steps up a hill



## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Far better to post a picture of your stairs, now where going to have to just guess what to do.


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## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

I snapped some pics. Still have to clear out alot of the dirt that I had to shovel out, but should give an idea of the overall structure. Its got a ton of rebar, 10" deklok screws, angle brackets...its not going anywhere!


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Going to have a bunch of issues to deal with the way that was done.
Any form of decking board, composite or wood needs air flow under it or it's going to rot or mold up.
Leaving the top soil in place, and concrete or compactable fill is not going to work.


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## joed (Mar 13, 2005)

Turn the pictures right side up.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Typically I have seen these use compacted fill. Dig out the grass, put down good quality landscape fabric, then your fill.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

+1 to mae-ling's post. What you have going looks good. Just a little more shovel work and you're there. 



joed said:


> turn the pictures right side up.


 ok...


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Ayuh,..... Fill 'em up with the fine crushed limestone ya got at the head of the stairs,....

3/4" Minus,...


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## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

joecaption said:


> Going to have a bunch of issues to deal with the way that was done.
> Any form of decking board, composite or wood needs air flow under it or it's going to rot or mold up.
> Leaving the top soil in place, and concrete or compactable fill is not going to work.


Can you provide a bit more detail? What about the way it was done will make none of those options work? I understand your point about deck boards not having the right amount of airflow. But I dont understand how concrete or compactable fill will not work.


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## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

And here are the pics right side up


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## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

mae-ling said:


> Typically I have seen these use compacted fill. Dig out the grass, put down good quality landscape fabric, then your fill.


This is great, thanks! I was thinking of a base layer of 57 stone (or some other kind of compactable base) topped with a pea gravel. Have any of you had experience with those epoxy products (like a gravel-lok or something like that) where it bonds the gravel together? It would be nice to keep that gravel from getting kicked/moved all around.

I've also read some stuff on no-fines concrete - where its something like 7 parts pea gravel, 1 part cement, 2 parts water (or something like that), and it bonds the pea gravel together but still provides drainage.


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

Not sure about the things you mention, just that pea gravel on it's own can be a pain, moves around and gets all over the lawn.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

mae-ling said:


> Not sure about the things you mention, just that pea gravel on it's own can be a pain, moves around and gets all over the lawn.


Ayuh,... Which is Why I suggested 3/4" _Minus_ limestone,.....

It'll compact, 'n be like concrete is a very short time,.....


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## Greg.Now (Feb 23, 2015)

Bondo said:


> Ayuh,... Which is Why I suggested 3/4" _Minus_ limestone,.....
> 
> It'll compact, 'n be like concrete is a very short time,.....


won't that still sag overtime with soil underneath? I think you should at least fill half of it with concrete and the other half with whatever artsy stuff you like. without a good base it won't last and look as good in a year or two.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

As the old organic matter rots it's going to sink.
Also some of it's going to regrow and come through whatever you put down.
It also will not compact.
Pea gravel will not compact, and will just make a mess.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Greg.Now said:


> won't that still sag overtime with soil underneath? I think you should at least fill half of it with concrete and the other half with whatever artsy stuff you like. without a good base it won't last and look as good in a year or two.


Ayuh,.... Even if it does, another wheelbarrow of stone applied, 'n it's fixed,...


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

have you considered putting in a few deep heavy concrete footings in some key places to keep things in place, however you decide to finish, drainage away from steps should be a priority, to keep lumber from sitting in wet soil, and water washing away your base, also if you live in frozen ground turf, the father you can separate your structure from wet soil the less heave you will get


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

btw - looks great!


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## Nestor_Kelebay (Jun 17, 2008)

If you can find a way to do it, borrow a trick from Mother Nature.

If you ever look under any kind of coniferous tree (pine, spruce, fir), you'll find that nothing ever grows directly under it except the hardiest weeds that will grow anywhere. I've noticed that many times as I used to hike in the Whiteshell Provincial Park when I was younger.

That is a coniferous tree's way of gaining a competitive advantage over faster growing plants that may grow near it and shade it from the Sun. Coniferous trees will drop needles, and those needles will rot in the ground and make that ground inhospitable to other plants. The only thing that will grow under a coniferous tree will be weeds that will grow in the worst conditions.

And, while it's just a guess, it's probably a good guess, that if other plants don't like living in the ground under a coniferous tree, then bugs that live in the ground like ants and sowbugs won't want to live in it either.

Anyhow, I'm thinking that if you could distribute dried up pine, spruce or fir tree needles on your steps and allow them to rot, they would prevent grass from growing on your steps in a 100% natural way.

Here in Manitoba, the local forestry department spreads coniferous tree needles on all the foot paths in the Provincial parks to minimize the amount of maintenance they have to do in keeping those paths clear and from becoming overgrown with grass and the less hardy weeds that grow here.

You COULD just wait for Christmas and liberate some abandoned Xmas trees, spread them out on some plastic and by early spring you'll have a bountiful harvest of pine, fir and spruce needles.


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## thais0n (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies guys. I am not too concerned about settling in the stairs. Once I remove all the grass/dirt that I dug up - the ground left is very compacted - its solid NC clay. So if i can get to this solid base, get a good layer of rock, then i can top with whatever. Also, I have pretty much cut out all of the sod in this area, and even before I built the steps - aside from grass, nothing else came in, and the grass wasnt doing too well either. Its a shaded side of the house.

The pine straw idea is interesting - here in NC we use pinestraw alot for mulch, but weeds still find a way.

I am still super intrigued by the idea of mixing some kind of epoxy with gravel. Trying to find a distributor to even get a ballpark on pricing, but could be a good alternative to concrete (also have a concrete guy coming in this weekend to give me a quote).

We had some really heavy rains last night (maybe 2-3" in less than an hour) and there was no puddling/washout or anything around the stairs, which makes me feel pretty good. I will keep everyone update on how it continues. I know I had trouble finding info on this kind of project, so hopefully this can help someone else.


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

> I am still super intrigued by the idea of mixing some kind of epoxy with gravel. Trying to find a distributor to even get a ballpark on pricing, but could be a good alternative to concrete (also have a concrete guy coming in this weekend to give me a quote).


Ayuh,.... Epoxy runs 'bout $100.00 a gallon, 'n has _No_ UV resistance,....


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## mae-ling (Dec 9, 2011)

dpending what frost heaving is like in your area, concrete without proper ground prep is a bad choice.


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## Yodaman (Mar 9, 2015)

thais0n said:


> its solid NC clay




That was my thought too, but it looks like we are in North Carolina


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## Jim F (Mar 4, 2010)

Yodaman said:


> That was my thought too, but it looks like we are in North Carolina


That's why adding your location is a good idea.


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## chuck172 (May 23, 2011)

*Re-open thread*

I hope I can reopen this thread, it's old I know but I do have some questions.
I understand that the first step is buried flush with grade. Rebar is used to fasten this down. Is rebar used on the additional steps, or are the timbers just screwed down to the previous steps?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

chuck172 said:


> I hope I can reopen this thread, it's old I know but I do have some questions.
> I understand that the first step is buried flush with grade.* Rebar is used to fasten this down. Is rebar used on the additional steps, or are the timbers just screwed down to the previous steps?*



Ayuh,.... Both,.... I pin each step, 'n tie 'em all together,....


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## chuck172 (May 23, 2011)

The first step is the only step that gets stone though, am I correct?


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## chuck172 (May 23, 2011)

*any other forums*

can anyone recommend a good forum to discus landscape timber steps?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

chuck172 said:


> can anyone recommend a good forum to discus landscape timber steps?


Ayuh,..... This is Why ya oughta start a New thread, of yer Own,....

Hi-jackin' this year old thread, puts yer questions 2 pages in, well after the original topic,....


Anyways,... In the pictures on page 1, you can see the boxes formed by the steps, each box is filled with stone to give a decent walkin' surface,....

Each tread should be ever so slightly pitched to the side ya want the water to go, as well as slightly pitched to the bottom of the stairs,....

I've built a few incarnations of this sorta stairs, only with steel, insteada 6x6s,....

Here's My 1st set,.....
Prepped, 'n ready for concrete,....

















The concrete shoot I made outa an ole kiddy pool surround I dug outa a dumpster,...
The rings that hold it together were cut outa a 12" culvert plastic pipe,...








As I came up the stairs, I cut off the shoot,.. junk plastic anyways,...

















The finished stairs,....









Years later,....


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## Msradell (Sep 1, 2011)

Looks like good old Yankee ingenuity came through with that chute!


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Msradell said:


> Looks like good old Yankee ingenuity came through with that chute!


Ayuh,... 'bout everything I do, 'n build is with junk found Dumpster Divin',.....

I've been recyclin', long before it became the popular creedo,....


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