# Cheap fix to prevent freezing pipes?



## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

I live in the Willamette Valley in Oregon. It doesn't get way far below freezing here, and not very often, so I don't want to spend a bunch of money doing this "right". I only have one place where pipes are in danger of freezing: in the kitchen wall, where the sink is. It is clear that the pipes are in the wall, they don't come up through the floor from the crawl space. It's a 40-year-old house, conventional 2x4 construction with (I assume) insulation batts in that wall. I don't want to open it up to check that, or how well insulation might be wrapped around the pipes. I've been dripping the kitchen faucet on the maybe 5 nights/year that it actually got cold enough to be a potential problem.

I assume all the other pipes within the crawl space are protected by the heated space above and the 50 degree ground below; vents have foam blocks in them. 

My cheap idea: they sell 4' X 8' sheets of 1" thick insulation. I was thinking to glue 2 together (to get 2" thick), then figure out a way to temporarily attach it to the outside wall (like velcro or something, so it's easily removable when not needed). It would just cover from the ground to the bottom of the window frame, and would be wide enough to cover the 16" space between 2x4s where the pipes are, and the 2 of those spaces on either side of the pipe space.

Any opinions on whether this would actually protect those pipes?
Thanks!


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Why not just drill two holes and drop in new short pipes with new valves go down and change the piping to the inside


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## fireguy (May 3, 2007)

Cut the wooden back of the cabinet, then cut the sheet rock. Pull the insulation batting out. Use spray insulation and fill the area between the exterior wall and the water pipe.


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

According to what I read, the batts have a greater R value than spray foam. I researched it because I want to add some insulation around some pipes just to retard air flow & temperature drop.


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## CaptTom (Dec 31, 2017)

Just opening the cabinet doors below the sink isn't enough?

If that doesn't work, and you don't want to do it right and re-route the pipes, Fireguy has your answer.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Guap0_ said:


> ... I want to add some insulation around some pipes just to retard air flow & temperature drop.



For the OP too. Not "around" the pipe. Insulation should be between the pipe and the exterior wall. No insulation between the pipe and interior of the home. 
So that heat from the conditioned home readily reaches the pipe. But heat from the pipe has a hard time getting to the cold outdoors.


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## rjniles (Feb 5, 2007)

CaptTom said:


> Just opening the cabinet doors below the sink isn't enough?
> 
> If that doesn't work, and you don't want to do it right and re-route the pipes, Fireguy has your answer.


Unless the pipes are on the wrong side of the insulation (or there is no insulation) this should be all you need.

Sent from my RCT6213W22 using Tapatalk


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## Guap0_ (Dec 2, 2017)

I don't want to hijack the thread & I think my question that my question will help the OP too. Don't the batts have a higher R value than spray foam? Yes or no?


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## Bondo (Dec 8, 2007)

Guap0_ said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread & I think my question that my question will help the OP too. *Don't the batts have a higher R value than spray foam? Yes or no?*


Nope,..... 4" of closed cell spray foam equals 6" of fiberglass batt,....


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

I don't know the condition or location of the insulation, that's why I'm thinking of just adding some outside. Cutting open and repairing walls is a little outside of my "DIY" abilities, so I'd rather not do that.


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

Nealtw said:


> Why not just drill two holes and drop in new short pipes with new valves go down and change the piping to the inside


This is surely the best solution. However, the crawl space has furnace ducting across the middle of the house, so the path between the access door and the kitchen is completely blocked. Re-routing the furnace ducting, adding new furnace vents, etc., gets beyond my "cheap" requirement. And yes, I should do that some day to be ready for the kitchen pipe disaster in the crawl space. But another day.


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

CaptTom said:


> Just opening the cabinet doors below the sink isn't enough?


It may be, I'm just paranoid. I also have a light under the sink that I turn on when it's in the 20s outside. No problems yet, but...


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

You all have good ideas, and are probably more skilled DIY folks than I am. But back to my original post, does anyone have any thoughts on whether my outside "stick-up" insulation would actually do any good?


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## Canarywood1 (May 5, 2012)

Why not just drill an inspection size hole in the bay that the pipes are in , and see if there's insulation there instead of going off half cocked , a good chance you don't have to do anything else.


As to your stickup insulation , it's a waste of time and money.


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## Nealtw (Jun 22, 2017)

Anything added to the outside would be a moisture trap and cause other problems.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Guap0_ said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread & I think my question that my question will help the OP too. Don't the batts have a higher R value than spray foam? Yes or no?


No, besides spray foam having a better r-value it blocks any air infiltration which is the primary downfall of fiberglass.

Note, there are different spray foams, open cell and closed can foam can be either. Open cell is less effective.

Bud


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

air leakage in a certain spot can cause pipes to freeze and putting insulation on the exterior crudely won't work.

You have to vent the bulkhead the pipes are in to the rest of the house.

Ideally, you open up the section that's freezing and put foam insulation right on the pipes, close it up with a return air grill. When it's open, area can be inspected form missing insulation, areas of infiltration.

I you don't want to do it right, simply continue to let the tap drip when it's cold enough for freezing to happen.


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

Ok, you've all given me food for thought. Back to the drawing board.
Thanks!


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

carolsm said:


> It is clear that the pipes are in the wall, they don't come up through the floor from the crawl space.


But they should be visible from that crawlspace below. Can you or someone get down there, sufficient clearance? If so then a piece or two of rigid insulation to the outside between the pipes and the wood rim could help a lot.

Let us know what access you have?

Bud


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> But they should be visible from that crawlspace below. Can you or someone get down there, sufficient clearance? If so then a piece or two of rigid insulation to the outside between the pipes and the wood rim could help a lot.
> 
> Let us know what access you have?
> 
> Bud


Because of the way the furnace ducting was installed, the crawl space to about half of the house (including the kitchen) is inaccessible. This is one of the reasons I want to prevent a plumbing emergency in the kitchen! Yes, I should get that fixed; I probably will some day.
However, I can see that the pipes are coming in through the drywall on the exterior wall, so they can't be anywhere BUT in the wall itself.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Although you can't get into that area in the crawlspace, those pipes most likely come from there. Holes (as mentioned before) drilled at the outer edge of the floor (as seen from below) would go directly into the wall above and that is a poor place for them it terms of being cold. The hole that the pipes pass through were most likely not sealed so incoming leakage from outside (below the rim) then can follow those pipes up into the cavity.

Sheet metal is actually pretty easy to work with and a tin man could modify an area for you so you could get through when needed, removable section.

Large company where I worked we walked right through the air plenum to get to another basement door.

Anyway, your outside idea will provide some benefit. Old farm houses often had wood panels that went up every winter, all the way around. Close off the ends as best you can.

Bud


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## carolsm (Dec 22, 2018)

Bud9051 said:


> Anyway, your outside idea will provide some benefit. Old farm houses often had wood panels that went up every winter, all the way around. Close off the ends as best you can.
> 
> Bud


I appreciate your input. Thanks!


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## tmittelstaedt (Nov 7, 2018)

I live in Portland OR. You said your house was built in 1978. 2008, 2004, '98, '96 all had temps in the 20s in Portland, '90 was 19, '89 had 2 days of 18 degrees - and your house didn't break a pipe then.

And we have Trump-warming going on now so we likely are going to have even fewer of those kind of days.


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

A 60-watt incandescent bulb can work miracles in these situations...


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## tallslenderguy (Nov 7, 2018)

i restored a 200 year old house that had a well and "well house" (a little smaller than a dog house). This was in VA and it usually snowed each year and we got quite a few freezes. The former owner had bats of fiberglass insulation around the pump and galvanized pipes and a light bulb. The light bulb (when on) generated just enough heat to keep things from freezing... i thought it was pretty brilliant and doesn't get much simpler or cheaper.


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## jimfarwell (Nov 25, 2014)

​


APA said:


> A 60-watt incandescent bulb can work miracles in these situations...


...yeah...but best buy a goodly supply of incandescents, before they go the way of Betamax tapes. :icon_rolleyes:


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

jimfarwell said:


> ...yeah...but best buy a goodly supply of incandescents, before they go the way of Betamax tapes. :icon_rolleyes:



I bought them by the gross when they were going out of style...


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## APA (Jul 13, 2018)

jimfarwell said:


> ...yeah...but best buy a goodly supply of incandescents, before they go the way of Betamax tapes. :icon_rolleyes:



You can also use the small spotlights....


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## Mystriss (Dec 26, 2018)

In Alaska it gets 40 to 70 below on the regular. When one absolutely has no other choice but to put pipes in an exterior wall or outside we use pipe wrap heaters or inline pipe heaters. 

My sump pump line outside has an inline heater (ours self-regulates and only comes on when it gets 25 below outside.) We had it installed for us (nearly 20 years ago now,) but they put it into the existing drain pipe so it should be possible to retrofit something like it for your sink if you can do a little soldering.


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