# Flat roof/vinyl siding



## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

That is very similar to what we do, except the term bar would be under the house wrap also. No need to secure the house wrap with the term bar. 

Behind the EPDM it should be water stopped, the term bar goes to the top of the epdm and then the edge is caulked. House wrap down to 1" or so less then where the siding will start. 

Make sure the EPDM is a good 12"+ up the wall.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Do you have any overhang on the roof.Caulk is never a good good substitute for proper installation and building methods.Picture would help a lot more than the above drawing.I've been doing this a long time and don't know what a terminator bar is.Could you enlighten me?
Are you saying the sided wall comes up flush with the roof deck?


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

A termination bar is what holds the roofing membrane down to the side of the building.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Met...UNI-sogTOg4DQBw&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=657


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

mako1 said:


> Do you have any overhang on the roof.Caulk is never a good good substitute for proper installation and building methods.Picture would help a lot more than the above drawing.I've been doing this a long time and don't know what a terminator bar is.Could you enlighten me?
> Are you saying the sided wall comes up flush with the roof deck?


Guess you learn something new every day.

https://www.versico.com/view.aspx?mode=media&contentID=904


The house wrap/siding act as a counter flashing. In this application caulking is the first line of defense against water, the 2nd being the water stop/EPDM/compression seal made by the termination bar. If you like I'd be glad to send you a tube of water stop to play with so you can learn the joys of water proofing in these cases. A lot of the time the surface caulking will hold up to 10 plus years if you use a decent caulking like NP-1.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

No doubt.I've been in the business for a long time and still learn something every day.We don't do the same things in different states and different climates and zones.Just the way it is and I don't claim to know how things are done in differernet parts of the country.I learn things all the time .Even from DIY stuff.The codes and nature are different all over the country.I admit being ignorant to the way things are done in several parts of the country.At least I admit it .Nobody can know it all but I try and and advise on what is typical for most of the country and sound building practice.
Caulking may be the first line if defense but caulking is never a good option over sound building practice and waterproofing no mater where you are at.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I try to build things so caulking is more for looks then to keep out water.
No home owner I've ever met in 40 years is going to be walking around looking for failed caulk until it's to late and the damage has already been done.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I agree for the most part slapping on some caulking is not the answer. In this case it is how it's done. 

If you look at what I posted its all about redundancy. 

For a 10 year warranty project, a term bar with caulking is fine. Step up to a 20 year and you need a counter flashing over that, a 30 year is actually the same.

Now take this same instance and go from a flat roof to a sloped roof. 

The EPDM goes up and instead of a term bar we will either use a anchor bar or a flat piece of counter flashing. Felt goes over that, singles go over that.

Any way you slice it, it sheds water, if something leaks above it, it all runs down hill. That's why I suggested not putting the term bar over the house wrap, but under it. No way for the water to get hung up.

No worry I learn something new everyday, everyone should.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

joecaption said:


> I try to build things so caulking is more for looks then to keep out water.
> No home owner I've ever met in 40 years is going to be walking around looking for failed caulk until it's to late and the damage has already been done.


 I agree and that is what I was saying.If caulking is your way of keeping moisture out you are setting yourself up for a failure.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

joecaption said:


> I try to build things so caulking is more for looks then to keep out water.
> No home owner I've ever met in 40 years is going to be walking around looking for failed caulk until it's to late and the damage has already been done.


But caulking is a sealant in this case, one of the sealants. I've never met any home owner who goes around looking for failed caulking, that's why they call contractors.

A lot of times if a term bar seal has failed the leak will show up fairly quickly, there generally will not be much water/damage.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

If you need to use caulk on any job to make it watersealed,You have done the job wrong.The purpose of caulk in not to waterproof just to assist in sealing and make things look better .


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

mako1 said:


> I agree and that is what I was saying.If caulking is your way of keeping moisture out you are setting yourself up for a failure.


I've seen lots of brick control joints caulked.

Coping metals, caulk between the laps.

EFIS to brick/block joints.

Back splashes

toilet bases

tile to tub joints

tub to surround joints

tub to tile joints

foundations to parking lot joints

There is a long list of areas in construction that rely on caulking joints to keep the moisture out.


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

As far as the way I do it none of the above are using caulk dedicated to keep the moisture out.It is simply used to deter the moisture from the next layer of protection,
It is not used on it's own to prevent intrusion of water.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

I would love to see your thoughts on the OP's question on how you would do it...


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## mako1 (Jan 7, 2014)

I would love to see a actual picture of what the op is trying to actually do.It's a little confusing to me.Glad it's not for you but I'm just trying to understand and asked a previous question which has not been answered about overhang.If there is any overhang at all I see not reason to do it the way as described unless I'm missing something.
I understand you're a roofer and know more about this than I do.Just trying to understand without getting into a pissing contest.Caulking is never an answer for me when roofing is not installed properly or improperly.Installed correctly there is no need for it.


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## Zmulle3 (Sep 16, 2014)

I attached pic of the roof i am working with. Not much of a overhang on the upper roof, part of the problem I am dealing with. Rain hits the side of house and gets behind the siding, and there is no water proofing whatsoever behind the siding. Upper roof is also flat and slopes toward the lower roof. I am planning on adding a gutter to keep more water away. I have not taken any thing apart yet, I am just planning ahead to make sure I know exactly what I am doing.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Gutter the upper roof and pull the bottom several courses of siding. Install the term bar and counter flashing.


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

mako1 said:


> I would love to see a actual picture of what the op is trying to actually do.It's a little confusing to me.Glad it's not for you but I'm just trying to understand and asked a previous question which has not been answered about overhang.If there is any overhang at all I see not reason to do it the way as described unless I'm missing something.
> I understand you're a roofer and know more about this than I do.Just trying to understand without getting into a pissing contest.Caulking is never an answer for me when roofing is not installed properly or improperly.Installed correctly there is no need for it.


This is a pretty common detail in residential low slopes. Roof to siding or roof to step slope. Over hang, no over hang shingles, wall it's all basically the same detail. 

FWIW, there is a need for caulking in roofing, again it goes back to redundancy. Plus there is a few areas that were listed before that solely rely on caulking. There is just not a way around it.


@ the OP, the detail is fine, just move the term bar under the house wrap.


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## Zmulle3 (Sep 16, 2014)

Still trying to figure out how to finish siding. Where do I start the siding? If I start the siding above the term bar then what is used to cover the rest of the house wrap? If I start siding below the term bar then I feel i would compromise the watertight integrity. Should I use a J-channel to start the siding or can I use the normal starter strip?


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## 1985gt (Jan 8, 2011)

We make a starter strip/counterflashing out of 24 ga colored metal. I'll attach a rough detail . When attached with wood tites (EPDM washer) screws the odds of it leaking are minimal. I'm sure others will tell you different... I really dislike when a J is used as a starter. If you used a standard vinyl siding starter strip, you could use flashing tape to cover the fasteners. If you are worried about the water tightness of the starter strip, you should also worry about the water tightness of every course of siding on up IMO.


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## carpdad (Oct 11, 2010)

You are going to waste time and money on flashing and new roof that will fail.
Your problem starts with the top roof, as you said, you have water behind the siding.
A gutter may not solve the problem.
You need to be certain that top roof and the drip edge are draining properly to outside and over the siding.
Your vinyl siding and j channels need to be "really" well flashed. The j channel over the top of the windows holds a lot of water. It must drain without leaking under the side and bottom channels.
Your existing flashing, I think, is well done - just from guessing based on its width. At least, it looks like roofing can be redone without having to remove the flashing and the siding.
Minimum, the bottom flashing of the window (behind the siding) must overlap the siding. Without knowing this, your new roof will fail.

You need a gutter, but put a 2x6 facia, cover with aluminum cover that is bent to overlap the siding from outside. Then gutter can be installed with bracket and stainless screws every 16".
Top flashing for 2x6 must slide under the roof drip edge and over the facia flashing.


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## Zmulle3 (Sep 16, 2014)

The roof isn't my problem, necessarily. I have taken some siding off to make sure the upper roof wasn't leaking down the wall. I can't find any water coming in any higher that the windows. I'm confident that it is getting behind the siding and since there is no protection behind the siding, it's finding it's way into the house.

I didn't expect a gutter to solve anything really except the only time i have had leaks is when it is a blowing rain and adding a gutter would reduce the cascade of water that would blow against the wall. Anytime we've had a steady downpour, no problems. Replacing the siding is just a cheap perk, can't really see in the picture, but it is discolored around the windows. There is barely 3 squares of siding there. 

Removing the siding allows me to improve the wall to roof junction, add a building wrap, properly flash around the windows, and to improve the slope of the flat roof as now there are areas that pond a lot of water.


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