# Contractor Nightmare - Front Porch Addition



## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

I kicked the contractor off the job site until he and I can get a building inspector out to review what he has done. I already paid him $3,000 and the materials aren't all on site yet. 
What would you do in this situation? I don't want them screwing up my roof too.

Contractor should be following 2006 IBC and 2006 IRC.

1. No flashing on the ledger and siding.
2. 4x4 posts are not anchored to the concrete pad - contractor claims the weight of the roof will keep it down.
3. No permits applied for.
4. 4x4 posts run from the ground to the underside of the outer band, and then are angle nailed to the outer band.

photos hopefully explain my frustration...
In this photo, you can see the porch nearly completed.










This one is really ugly. This is the double beam that runs perpendicular to the house. They scabbed 2x4's to the back side of the 4x4 post and then nailed it in. This photo shows a 1 inch gap between the outerband and the double beam. The contractor is telling me he will just put 90 degree angle brackets on this and it will be fine. I asked him to install a 6x6 post, and he isn't willing to do that.










Look closely at this photo. The 4x4 does not run through the porch. It is 2 separate 4x4's. THe 4x4 on top is supporting the roof and is only angle nailed into the 5/4 decking boards.







http://webpages.charter.net/my5sons/support1.jpg

Last photo (sorry for the attachment) shows a 4x4 that is just resting on the sidewalk. There are actually 2 of these. The contractor again says that this will be ok since the roof will put enough pressure on it to keep it stable.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

wow...I've seen some bad stuff...and yours rank right up there.

Do you have a contract?


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Why did you let him start the job without approved plans and the permit?
This needs to be torn down.
Ron


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys. He showed me photos of other porches he had done, and he also had references who spoke highly of him. I received 3 quotes from 3 separate contractors and none of them told me that do plans. I told them what I wanted, and how high I wanted the roof, and they were supposed to do the job. As for the permit, I called the permit office and they told me no one had applied for a permit. His explanation is that he doesn't need one until it is framed completely. That is news to me. When I told him he needed the permit before he begins... he said "well yeah, technically."

:furious: This actually hurts more than you all can imagine. I don't have the money to continue this project without getting my $3,000 back. Fat chance doing that.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> Why did you let him start the job without approved plans and the permit?
> This needs to be torn down.
> Ron


I wish it was required, but in Greenville, South Carolina, no plans need to be submitted to inspector for residential work.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

your complaints are justified. good luck!


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

He also told me that it is my fault that the deck looks this way because my garage wall is "out of square". I asked him if he knew that before the job began? He said no, and I asked him why he doesn't ensure squareness before the job begins.


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## Shamus (Apr 27, 2008)

Damn!

What state are you in? Get the inspector out asap. 

My first thought is to run this guy out of the business and soon before he hurts someone. Don't know the particulars but holly cow that's just incompetence, period. Please tell me he's a local handyman and not a licensed contractor.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

The same old saying, Its always the home owners fault. A good craftsmen will over come all obstacles. which it sounds,he is not one. BOB


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Shamus said:


> Damn!
> 
> What state are you in? Get the inspector out asap.
> 
> My first thought is to run this guy out of the business and soon before he hurts someone. Don't know the particulars but holly cow that's just incompetence, period. Please tell me he's a local handyman and not a licensed contractor.


I removed the identifiers from this posting on his website, but this is what it says about his company...

They claim they follow the approved plans, specifications, and meet all required codes and acceptable standards ... explicitly, within budget, and on schedule.

I don't know if I could say that they have followed any standards... 

They are licensed builders and members of the Home Builders Association and Better Business Bureau.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

I just called the building inspector, they won't come out and take a look unless I have paid for a permit. The lady said that they are too busy. I need to apply for a permit first.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

Many communities have a fund to compensate for poor work done by licensed contractors. There should also be a governing body that oversees licensed contractors. Both of these avenues should be persued if the contractor doesn't correct these issues.
Write a letter to him explaining the issues, especially the permit issue. Ask him to correct these issues in a specifed time frame. Mail it to him certified mail and wait for a response. If he doesn't respond by the deadline, start writing to those people who control his business and complain.
I would apply for the permit asap and get the inspector out there to detail exactly what is wrong with the project. Ask for a copy of his report for your records and include that in any letters you write.
Some people need the carrot, some people the stick. This guys attention needs to be gotten.
Ron


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

FYI -- M5S, Never copy or post the "exact" wording from a web site...Google is too good and it's way too easy to find out who you are referring to. I would edit your post and get rid of the text and put it in your own words just to keep you out of hot water and potentially being seen as running his business down in a public forum, not that it shouldn't be done...but not at this stage.

I guess it's no on the contract?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> I guess it's no on the contract?


yes, we have a signed contract. It's signed by him, but he's never asked us for it back. It talks about satisfaction and a 1 year workmaship warranty. Like I said, he claims he's not done and he can fix it. How do you fix that without ripping the deck up? 

A sidewalk can't support a roof can it?
Flashing needs to be installed behind the siding and under the deck boards right? They are already installed.

Also, he claims that he is getting a building inspector to come out tomorrow and make a report of what he has done so far. I don't want to apply for a permit, if he is going to do it. It will just be more money out of my pocket. I believe he has been doing a lot of business in my area and knows these inspectors. Should I be concerned?


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

First off call the BBB. If he says he is a member and isn't they will go after him. Then file a complaint.

Second call the state. If he has a contractors license then file a monetary complaint. If he doesn't have a contractors license then file a complaint about not having a contractors license.

Third, call the county DA where you live and find out about criminal action for operating without a contractors license.

Forth, find out all you can about him. Get his home address and license of his vehicles. Go to small claims court and sue him. More than likely he will not show up. You will win by default.

After you have the judgment then file a lien against any property he owns. If you can't find any property then have his vehicle seized. The sheriff will do that and you have to pay for it. Once it has been seized then he has 30 days to either satisfy the the judgment or you can have the vehicle sold. If the vehicle doesn't bring in enough money then you can seize another vehilce. All the costs of doing this will be added on to the judgement so get recepts for everything.

Don't let this guy get away with this.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

Let him get the permits... and since you have a legitimate list of concerns, make sure you're on site when the inspection is scheduled...bring up your concerns with him. Keep taking pictures of the issues you have. 

It's odd that the contract has his signature and not yours...would make one wonder if it's valid, I doubt it is. If you can get out of the contract, fire him. You could go through small claims to recover the balance of the $3K in materials you feel due you. You may want to check with the Home builders association and BBB to see if they have a process to register a complaint about a member, find out what it is...and get ready to pull the trigger with the complaint if you cannot reach a mutual agreement. At minimum at the end of this, you should negotiate that he signs a lein waiver for materials and labor he has done with this job.

EDIT: Do as Marvin_Gardens says!


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Marvin Gardens said:


> First off call the BBB. If he says he is a member and isn't they will go after him. Then file a complaint.
> 
> Second call the state. If he has a contractors license then file a monetary complaint. If he doesn't have a contractors license then file a complaint about not having a contractors license.
> 
> Third, call the county DA where you live and find out about criminal action for operating without a contractors license.


He has a Residential Contractor License. I verified it with South Carolina License and Labor Board. How do you find out if he is a member of BBB? He's listed on the site, but does that automatically mean he's a member.



> Forth, find out all you can about him. Get his home address and license of his vehicles. Go to small claims court and sue him. More than likely he will not show up. You will win by default.


This might be the road I have to take.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

my5sons said:


> ...How do you find out if he is a member of BBB?


Ya contact them....http://www.greenville.bbb.org


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Whatever he tells you, that is hack work. Total and complete jack leg hack work. I don't care what his website says, or workmanship warranties, or what ever, that work is horrible. He's clue-less.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Ya contact them....http://www.greenville.bbb.org


I had to contact them by email. I'm having another guy come out and tell me what needs to be done to correct everything short of tearing it out.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Whatever he tells you, that is hack work. Total and complete jack leg hack work. I don't care what his website says, or workmanship warranties, or what ever, that work is horrible. He's clue-less.


Thanks... hindsight is 20/20 and lots of money. I failed to ask the important questions. I could just slap myself for being stupid enough to not research a little bit more. His website shows custom homes built in very well-to-do neighborhoods. 

I have had to show him how his measurements were off on Monday, I gave him the 3rd degree, and so he cut the beam and ended up cutting it too short. He now claims that my garage wall is out of square and that is why it is screwed up. He's telling me that a 90 degree bracket will solve this. I told him no way, it needs support of a 6x6. 

I just called the inspector and he says that if I apply for the permit, I am the contractor and must bring everything up to code. He told me to leave it to the contractor responsibility. They are going to "double fee" charge him.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

Try this:

Better Business Bureau
408 N. Church St, Suite C
Greenville*,* SC 29601-2164
864-242-5052
Toll free: 1-800-948-5791
Fax: 864-271-9802
E-mail: [email protected]


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

You can go to BBB.org here and do a nationwide search.

http://us.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx?site=113&id=46a6a9cd-5402-454e-9476-e4df22e6f371

You might have to look up under different names to find him like his personal name, or phone number, or address, or business name. Just keep searching.

I agree with everyone else that this is a real hack job. Keep in mind that on a web site you can put anything you want to including pictures that he got off the internet. Doesn't mean he did that work. It means he either hired someone to do his web site or did it himself and knows how to post pictures.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

my5sons said:


> ....His website shows custom homes built in very well-to-do neighborhoods.
> 
> I have had to show him how his measurements were off on Monday, I gave him the 3rd degree, and so he cut the beam and ended up cutting it too short. He now claims that my garage wall is out of square and that is why it is screwed up. He's telling me that a 90 degree bracket will solve this. I told him no way, it needs support of a 6x6.
> .


I wonder if he's even who he says he is. I wonder if he could be using some one else's info, website, and numbers....

Because: There is no way in the world, that the work you showed, was done by a custom home builder....not a million years. 

A "carpenter's apprentice" could do better work.

Complete Hack.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Try this:
> 
> Better Business Bureau
> 408 N. Church St, Suite C
> ...


My luck, they close at 4pm.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm sure you'll be up early in the morning!


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Take a look at this photo again. I'm sure it is hard to see. Maybe I will take closer ones. I Just need opinions. This will eventually be a gable roof. He has notched the beam boards that sit on the top plate of my house. Shouldn't these sit squarely on the top plate of the outside wall and attach to something?











UPDATE: He called me back and said that he would be going out to the job site in the morning and fixing that 1 inch gap by using a double joist hanger and screws. I asked him if the gap would be gone, he said no, the gap would still be there, but the joist hanger is 1.5 inches and will be strong enough to tie it in. ??????????????


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

my5sons said:


> Take a look at this photo again. I'm sure it is hard to see. Maybe I will take closer ones. I Just need opinions. This will eventually be a gable roof. He has notched the beam boards that sit on the top plate of my house. Shouldn't these sit squarely on the top plate of the outside wall and attach to something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This entire structure needs to be removed from the house. You might be able to salvage the wood, but not the structure. 
Stevie Wonder with a chain saw could do a better job.
Ron


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> Stevie Wonder with a chain saw could do a better job.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## stcroix123 (Oct 29, 2008)

if i understand this right the guy can't measure, doesn't know code, has total disdain for the building inspector, expects gravity to hold things up,and never heard of windshear. oh yes he also dosn't realize that notching reduces the whole joist to the strength of the width of the notch. miss anything?


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## Jay123 (May 7, 2008)

stcroix123 said:


> if i understand this right the guy can't measure, doesn't know code, has total disdain for the building inspector, expects gravity to hold things up,and never heard of windshear. oh yes he also dosn't realize that notching reduces the whole joist to the strength of the width of the notch. miss anything?


Yeah, apparently he's also a well respected, licensed gc with good references...:confused1::confused1::confused1: :icon_rolleyes:.

Who is actually doing the work, the gc's 3yr old kid? (no offense to 3 yr olds.) :whistling2:

J


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> This entire structure needs to be removed from the house. You might be able to salvage the wood, but not the structure.
> Stevie Wonder with a chain saw could do a better job.
> Ron


Thanks for the help. Is there a structural engineer or someone I can contact other than the building inspector who can tell me that this structure isn't sound. I realize that it is not, and it is quite obvious by the photos, but this guy is clueless, and unless I sick the dogs on him, he's not likely to budge. I'm out $3,000, which I could probably get back from him in court, but what do I do in the meantime if I don't have the full amount to have the job taken over by someone else?

I need a professional structural engineer or someone who can come out and say "That structure won't make it" so that he can be told and he will have to either tear it down or give me my money back. If I say it's not structurally sound, he's got one excuse after another (remember, he thinks he's the expert and I am the lowly homeowner). I already plan on saying "Give me the $3,000 back and we'll both just walk away from this", but I don't see it happening, I need a backup plan.


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

my5sons said:


> I need a professional structural engineer...


Assuming the address is correct from the contractor...here's a list of engineers in the general area. If it's not, go to Google maps, type the name of town, state, and engineer. You'll get some hits in the local area.

What did the BBB have to say when you called them? 

Have you talked to the local DA like MarvinGardens suggested?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

RippySkippy said:


> Assuming the address is correct from the contractor...here's a list of engineers in the general area. If it's not, go to Google maps, type the name of town, state, and engineer. You'll get some hits in the local area.
> 
> What did the BBB have to say when you called them?
> 
> Have you talked to the local DA like MarvinGardens suggested?


The BBB said he is listed as a member, but I'm not too impressed with her explanation. He's listed on the website, he's doing nothing wrong, because he responded to 1 dispute previously.
Marvin Suggested the DA if he was operating without a license. I confirmed his GC license through SC department of labor and licensing. He's legit for licensing, but they should definitely start licensing hammers and tape measures before they sell them at home depot.

There is no telling what his crew's credentials are.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

A structural engineer will cost you between $500-800. to come out there and look at the job and write a report. Maybe more, depending on distance to the site.
Did this contractor have vehicles with his name on them?
Ron

You can try calling another contractor and see if he would be willing to write a report as to the structures deficiencies. A Home Inspector might also work. They will be less expensive then the engineer.Addedinfo


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## RippySkippy (Feb 9, 2007)

His previous actions doesn't keep you from filing a complaint. WRT the DA...your right...I went back and re-read the post.

Looks like you have to get a hold of an engineer...and wait for the building inspector. Post back as things progress...


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

The building inspector will tell you if it is sound or not. This is legal in court since he is considered a government expert. Wait till he looks at this pile of lumber (can't really call it anything else).

Let us know what he said.

Above all proceed slowly. Don't get too many things going at once.

Is the guy doing the work the owner of the company? Or is he an employee?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Ron6519 said:


> A structural engineer will cost you between $500-800. to come out there and look at the job and write a report. Maybe more, depending on distance to the site.
> Did this contractor have vehicles with his name on them?
> Ron
> 
> You can try calling another contractor and see if he would be willing to write a report as to the structures deficiencies. A Home Inspector might also work. They will be less expensive then the engineer. Added info


Thanks Ron, at this point, I am so stressed with this, I'd throw $500 away to save myself $8,000 or more later. I called another contractor, he never showed. He was going to do this as a favor and tell me what he would do to fix it. My contractor's vehicle didn't have his name on it.

UPDATE: I received an email response from the local bbb and asked them specifically if XXX Company was a "member" of the BBB. Now, they say they are not members...

A member of the BBB means they meet our standards for membership including being properly licensed, in business a year or have previous business history, they agree to answer the bureau on complaints to help to resolve any issues, agree to arbitration if needed, etc.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Marvin Gardens said:


> Is the guy doing the work the owner of the company? Or is he an employee?


The guy is the owner/contractor/subcontractor. He told me that the guys on the site are employed by him, not subcontractors.


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

my5sons said:


> Thanks Ron, at this point, I am so stressed with this, I'd throw $500 away to save myself $8,000 or more later. I called another contractor, he never showed. He was going to do this as a favor and tell me what he would do to fix it. My contractor's vehicle didn't have his name on it.
> 
> UPDATE: I received an email response from the local bbb and asked them specifically if XXX Company was a "member" of the BBB. Now, they say they are not members...
> 
> A member of the BBB means they meet our standards for membership including being properly licensed, in business a year or have previous business history, they agree to answer the bureau on complaints to help to resolve any issues, agree to arbitration if needed, etc.


Don't know if this is allowed or not but can you post his business and phone. I can do some searching for you. If you can get the owners name that would be good also.

Give me his web site also.

If this is not allowed on this forum then send me all the information you have in a PM.


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## rjordan392 (Apr 28, 2005)

Whatever you do to get this fixed, do not apply for a permit yourself. If you do, it makes you the general contractor and then makes you responsible for code violations. And if you have to take this contractor to court to recover your costs, then the issue of who took out the permit will come into play. The cost is minimal for a permit compared to any construction job. 
Don't listen to his claims that things can be fixed. This guy is pretending to be a contractor. Start the proceedings for your claim in small claims court. Get some documentation to show that the work is not acceptable from other contractors or building inspectors.

I find it peculiar that your citys licensing bureau asked you to apply for a permit before their inspector can come out. In my city, any of my neighbors can call to complain about the lack of a permit not being displayed for all to see on the construction project and a inspector will come out during construction to find out why.


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## Joe F (Jan 27, 2008)

Here are a couple of my thoughts after reading through this.

I would not let the contractor step foot on the job site unless:

1. He’s returning your $3000.
2. He’s dropping off the building permit.
3. The issue is resolved to your satisfaction and he’s coming back to work.

Before spending money on an engineer or home inspector (you can always do that later), you might try talking to the local inspector and see if he’ll do a “courtesy” look. Explain the “Catch 22” you’re in, i.e. no inspection without the permit and the contractor hasn’t pulled the permit. I would think the inspector would be sympathetic, if nothing else you can establish a rapport with him. I’d also find out who you need to speak to about questioning the licensing credentials. 

It sounds to me that your “desired outcome” is to get your $3000 back and start over. To do that, it needs to become clear to the contractor that it will be MUCH less painful to give you your money back than to continue. Some of the levers you might be able to use against him are to let him know, 1. You are going after his license, 2. You are going to research his previous work and see if permits were pulled and notify the appropriate individuals if they weren’t, 3.You are going to take him to small claims court for the $3000 plus the cost of demolition.

Keep in mind, you don’t have to do any of these things if you don’t want to, he just needs to believe you’ll take it that far or further. Good luck!!!


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Marvin Gardens said:


> Don't know if this is allowed or not but can you post his business and phone. I can do some searching for you. If you can get the owners name that would be good also.
> 
> Give me his web site also.
> 
> If this is not allowed on this forum then send me all the information you have in a PM.


He owns both of these companies. registered to the same address according to bbb.
H&D Construction LLC
The Renovators LLC - this is who I hired.

partner: Shannon C. Davidson - he's the one who is contracting for my front porch.

other partner: Chris Hicks

http://www.handdconstructionllc.com/


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

my5sons said:


> He owns both of these companies. registered to the same address according to bbb.
> H&D Construction LLC
> The Renovators LLC - this is who I hired.
> 
> ...


And what state and city are you located near?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Greenville, SC


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

He applied and received his permit for my porch yesterday. He began the project on October 22nd and received the permit on October 29th.


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

So far:

The Renovators are owned by H and D Construction. It is set up as an LLC so going after The Renovators is all you have unless you can show that H and D construction is getting the jobs and providing workers and letting the Renovators use their equipment to do the work, then there is less protection from the LLC.

I am working on who the principles are of H and D Construction. It appears they have no licenses, no insurance, no employees, it is just a shell corporation who works through The Renovators.

Shannon Davidson had been before the contractors board for substandard work (IMAGINE THAT) and was order to pay $3,000 plus fix the problems. Look at the top link of this search.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Shan...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I would file a complaint right away at the State Contractors Board.


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## Shamus (Apr 27, 2008)

Just a thought from someone that knows his way around putting a business, specfically the principals, in some hot water. Shoot me a PM when this gets sorted out, provided you want to continue to make them jump through some hoops for the next year or so. :whistling2:

Gawd I can't stand to see someone steal money like that. It's a crime in my book.


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## wildcat (Oct 24, 2008)

I would recommend calling _Britt Peters and Associates _(864.271.8869) to come do the structural investigation. And while you're at it ask them who they would use to build a porch for their home. If I were in the Greenville/Spartanburg area I would come do it for you (no charge because people who pull crap like this really tick me off)...but I'm in Kansas.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

I found another one for Shannon

http://www.llr.state.sc.us/pol/ResidentialBuilders/Final Orders/Davidson, Shannon Feb06.pdf


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Hello guys, I arrived home today from Philly. I have uploaded numerous photos, called the Building Inspector (he's coming out on Monday) and talked with the contractor who is refusing to refund my money even after I told him that I contacted the International Code Council, The License and Labor Review Board and other builders. He laughed at me and told me that if I have all these other builders who say his work is bad, why did I hire him?. He also complained that he keeps getting people who sue him. he actually told me that there is a couple in Spartanburg who are suing him after he passed all inspections and they said his workmanship is lacking...... :thumbsup:

Anyway, here are some photos that should make you all throw up.

http://webpages.charter.net/my5sons


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

never seen the like...... do you have a rag i can use to clean up this mess on my floor?

DM


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## wildcat (Oct 24, 2008)

I have two words for this idiot...Simpson catalog.:wallbash:


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

Somehow it seems appropriate that we see these pictures on Halloween. Very scary indeed.


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## super carpenter Rob (Oct 28, 2008)

this why you take out permits so if you don't know what's right the inspector would find anything that's not right that being said it looks like you are missing hangers and bolts the thing now is to make sure that the hangers nails and other fasteners are rated for current treated lumber I believe that the roof and deck can be corrected without completely tkaing apart just need to put the hangers in the right places and the 4x4's do need to be attached if not they will twist and bow regards Rob


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

super carpenter Rob said:


> this why you take out permits so if you don't know what's right the inspector would find anything that's not right that being said it looks like you are missing hangers and bolts the thing now is to make sure that the hangers nails and other fasteners are rated for current treated lumber I believe that the roof and deck can be corrected without completely tkaing apart just need to put the hangers in the right places and the 4x4's do need to be attached if not they will twist and bow regards Rob


Insert punctuation here...


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## super carpenter Rob (Oct 28, 2008)

jerryh3 said:


> Insert punctuation here...


 I'm a carpenter and hated english don't spell very well but I'm a very good carpenter and I don't believe punctuation is going to make anything better


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

super carpenter Rob said:


> this why you take out permits so if you don't know what's right the inspector would find anything that's not right that being said it looks like you are missing hangers and bolts the thing now is to make sure that the hangers nails and other fasteners are rated for current treated lumber I believe that the roof and deck can be corrected without completely tkaing apart just need to put the hangers in the right places and the 4x4's do need to be attached if not they will twist and bow regards Rob


How do you put joist hangers on a end-notched board that is sitting on a 2x2?


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## frenchelectrican (Apr 12, 2006)

Normally I am a electrician myself but to see the construction something like this now.,, that is insensé { insane } !!!!

I don't see any hangers there at all.

That will be a good chance that it will have to come down and redo it again with proper materals and codewise.

Senice you mention you live in South Carolina right .,, that part of Hurranie area and there is additon codes it will show up there.

Merci,Marc


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## jerryh3 (Dec 10, 2007)

super carpenter Rob said:


> I'm a carpenter and hated english don't spell very well but I'm a very good carpenter and I don't believe punctuation is going to make anything better


Just busting a little. There are some people on here that have some good ideas, but if they can't explain them in a clear manner, they are sometimes dismissed by the other users.


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## DangerMouse (Jul 17, 2008)

verytruejerrywhenyouhavetoaddpunctuationitmakesithardtoreadsopicka!or.or?

DM


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## super carpenter Rob (Oct 28, 2008)

my5sons said:


> How do you put joist hangers on a end-notched board that is sitting on a 2x2?


 you don't I work for a guy 25 years ago that did them that way with a cheat and notch the end so not hanger I always use hangers and the 2x2 can be taken off and hangers can be installed and if the notch bothers you square at notch and ad a 2xwhatever the joist are there are ways to get things none without completely removing


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> Normally I am a electrician myself but to see the construction something like this now.,, that is insensé { insane } !!!!
> 
> I don't see any hangers there at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks Marc, I live in the upstate of South Carolina. We get high winds and ice storms, but no hurricanes. I'm 3 hours inland. I do not believe we have hurricane strap requirements.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

super carpenter Rob said:


> you don't I work for a guy 25 years ago that did them that way with a cheat and notch the end so not hanger I always use hangers and the 2x2 can be taken off and hangers can be installed and if the notch bothers you square at notch and ad a 2xwhatever the joist are there are ways to get things none without completely removing


I'm not following you Rob. I can't put a hanger on a notched board because the simpson strongtie hanger only supports 1.5 inches of the joist. If the 1.5 inches of the joist is already notched out and removed, I can't very well put a joist hanger on it and call it a day.

You are the only person who believes this could be done correctly without removing the whole thing and starting from scratch.


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## BigJim (Sep 2, 2008)

One thing that bothers me the most is the girder being supported by the T-111 siding. That is a lot of pressure to be supported by a piece of siding, not to mention if it pulled away from the wall it wouldn't have far to go before it came down. Overall it is all poorly constructed, IMO. I have a feeling once the inspector takes a look at all this mess, he will order it all removed and started over.


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## Marvin Gardens (Sep 30, 2008)

The bottom line is that we are not there and can't see all the details of the job.

But we all agree that it is a nasty looking job with some serious concerns about the structure.

Now that you have a permit have the inspector come out and see what he says. He will write a report and you should get a copy of it.

Once you get the copy of the report you can use that to pursue a case against the contractor at the state contractors board so you can get your money back.

If the contractors board finds in your favor then you can go to small claims court to get any money that you are out. He has a 2 million liability policy so you would be guaranteed to get your money back.

I would also file a complaint at the BBB right away. He already has one complaint that was resolved but getting another complaint will give people pause before they hire him.

Everything hinges on what he inspector says and writes. If he finds the work acceptable you are pretty much screwed unless you want to take your chances in small claims. If you decide to go that route get some more opinions from other contractors and have then write a report. If it costs you money then you can add that on to your claim at small claims court.

Keep detailed records of any costs and a diary of contacts of everything that happens. Be precise and include pertinent quotes as necessary. At this point documentation is everything.


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## super carpenter Rob (Oct 28, 2008)

was there a deck roof there to begin with,here in cincinnati if it was one there before you can rebuild it without plans using footer that are there if not you would need a set of approved plans so I'm thinking you don't have plans,if you did the inspector would be involved regards Rob


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

super carpenter Rob said:


> I'm a carpenter and hated english don't spell very well but I'm a very good carpenter and I don't believe punctuation is going to make anything better


Making an effort to use decent punctuation and grammar, is a consideration to others on the site, especially to those who read your posts. Lack of it, makes it hard to understand/comprehend what someone is saying.

Realistically, none of us can say we have perfect spelling/punctuation at all times.
But, please, could you at least, make "some-what" of an effort, out of consideration for others, and so that they may better understand your posts?

Thanks.


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## Dan V. (Oct 29, 2008)

Wow! That is some heinous work.

Unfortunately, it's more common than you might think. I was recently hired to rebuild the support structure of a deck that was failing. I'm in the northeast (CT) and the code for pier depth here is 42". The piers that were in place when I started were no more than 18" deep! The whole deck was out of square and level due to this. The piers had all moved and/or canted and actually broke in half in one place. The guys who originally built the deck were part of the developer's team and built many more very similar to this one.

I was also hired to rebuild a deck that had actually collapsed. Different neighborhood and developer, but similar shoddy construction. This deck was 12' wide and was 7' off the ground and the ledger board was only 6' long! AND it was attached to the house with NAILS ONLY! AND the footers were just resting on the piers, just like your 4x4 on the sidewalk. No wonder the thing came down. The H.O. and his wife were on it at the time. Both received injuries.


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## Joe F (Jan 27, 2008)

Have you considered calling the local TV station to see if they might be interested in doing one of those "We're on your side" type of stories?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

super carpenter Rob said:


> was there a deck roof there to begin with,here in cincinnati if it was one there before you can rebuild it without plans using footer that are there if not you would need a set of approved plans so I'm thinking you don't have plans,if you did the inspector would be involved regards Rob


No, there wasn't. In my county, unfortunately, plans are not needed on additions to a home. Pretty sad, but true.

On another note, I don't have a problem reading your "missing punctuation" posts. I can understand everything you are trying to help with. I know it is a huge pet peeve on web forums, but it is not really one of mine.

Thanks for the reply.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Dan V. said:


> Wow! That is some heinous work.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's more common than you might think.
> 
> I was also hired to rebuild a deck that had actually collapsed. Different neighborhood and developer, but similar shoddy construction. This deck was 12' wide and was 7' off the ground and the ledger board was only 6' long! AND it was attached to the house with NAILS ONLY! AND the footers were just resting on the piers, just like your 4x4 on the sidewalk. No wonder the thing came down. The H.O. and his wife were on it at the time. Both received injuries.


That is exactly what I am afraid of. I have a large family of 7. The wife and I and 5 boys ages 13, 11, 9, 3, 1. We also are the "hangout" for neighbors kids. They all play at our house. During the summer each year, my wife's family plans a reunion, and we plan on having everyone here. 31 children to be exact, plus adults. It will not be a great test for this porch.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Joe F said:


> Have you considered calling the local TV station to see if they might be interested in doing one of those "We're on your side" type of stories?


Joe, thanks for the great idea. I didn't think about it, but if the inspector passes it, I will certainly contact them and see what can be done.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

jiju1943 said:


> One thing that bothers me the most is the girder being supported by the T-111 siding. That is a lot of pressure to be supported by a piece of siding, not to mention if it pulled away from the wall it wouldn't have far to go before it came down. Overall it is all poorly constructed, IMO. I have a feeling once the inspector takes a look at all this mess, he will order it all removed and started over.


Actually the Girder AND the Gable End is supported on the T1-11 siding.


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## Wildie (Jul 23, 2008)

super carpenter Rob said:


> This why you take out permits,so if you don't know what's right, the inspector WILL. HE would find anything that's not right! That being said, it looks like you are missing hangers and bolts. The thing now is to make sure that the hangers nails and other fasteners are rated for current treated lumber. I believe that the roof and deck can be corrected without completely tkaing apart. Just need to put the hangers in the right places and the 4x4's do need to be attached. If not they will twist and bow! Regards Rob


 Thinking that what you said is useful, I have added some punctuation in your post.
As you were willing to assist with advice for the porch, I thought that it would be fair to offer some asistance, on your behalf.
Hope you are OK with this!


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Well, the building inspector came out today. He claims that he can't do anything about the framing until it is rough framed and they get the rough frame inspection.

His exact words were "It don't look good, but it will probably pass code inspection from us"

He is requiring the guy to dig down beside 2 of the footers before he completes the footer inspection. He wants to see how deep they are dug.

I NEED HELP! Getting the code violations in my own report to give to the inspector. He wasn't too keen on me telling him in person. I want it in writing to send to the Building Inspector's Office.

We are using 2003 IRC

1. He claims that it is NOT against code to attach a ledger board to T1-11 siding.
2. He agrees that flashing should have been installed.
3. He claims that code only requires a 12" wide footer dug 12" deep. He will verify the footing depth when the contractor calls him again.
4. He claims that as long as the footer is correct, you can pour 5 inches of concrete in a "2nd pour" and the posts will not move.

I also measured over the weekend and I have 2x8 joists, 2x8 outer band. The longest joist span is 11 feet, 9 inches, with 2x8 that is notched 1.5 inches.


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## wrangler (Oct 9, 2008)

I did a search on this thread so that I could show it to my girlfriend. I told her that she would not believe the work that was done on your home. She was out of town for a teachers conference when this thread started, so I assumed that there would have been a great resolve to your problem by now. I can not believe that you local inspector has found this work to be adequate! As I read through your post on Halloween, the first thing that came to my mind was the fact that there were no joist hangers. 2nd was that there were no footers, 3rd, that the rafters ran the long distance versus the short run from existing roof to end, and well, the list seems to go on and on, but yet you say that the inspector had little problem with the structure??? I, like others have stated, was sure that once an inspector had seen this, he would have given you the bad news that the entire structure was going to have to be taken down and redone correctly. Is he somehow related to the contractor? Is there someone above him that you can appeal to? I would feel terrible about doing work like that for someone, let alone if I had hired someone to do that work for me! 
Another concern I would have (even if by some stretch of the imagination that SC allows that kind of construction) is if your home-owners policy will cover you if someone is injured WHEN (not IF) it fails. 
Please keep us updated, because to be honest with you, I find this very scary and almost hard to believe. 
Maybe Florida codes are a bit more strict than other states, but I would think that some things (like joist hangers) were standard in all states. And if I understand your whole post correctly, that long run across the front of the house is also to support a roof??? I really do hope you get this resolved as it could be dangerous for not only you, but the future owners of the home.
Brett


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## shadango (Jun 8, 2008)

I have found the building inspector in my area to be useless.

Had a roof and soffit/facia/gutter installation done back in June.

Permits were required, but the "contractor" I hired never pulled them. I had looked at his previouswork and talked to previous customers, and all seemed fine....so I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The work overall seemed generally OK to me, but there were numerous issues along the way.....in the end, the guy refused to fix the things that needed fixed.....many aesthetic issues (you buy new soffit/facia for the aesthetics, remember) and several major mechanical issues including two major leaks.....I had been paying the guy all along in order to try and be reasonable.....in the end, there wasa long list of things, at minimum that needed to be done.....I was dumb enough to make a substantial payment the day that the guy said "we are done for the most part but will be back to finish up".....I did holdback $1,000 thinking that was enough of a incetive....well, didnt hear from the guy for 3 weeks.....found out in the meantime that it would cost over $3k to fix JUST the leaks.....well, luckily this shyster still hadnt cashed the check I gave him 3 weeks (!!!) earlier....and I put astop on it andsent him a letter saying I did so....THEN I heard from him and he made all sorts of excuses.....Basically we fired him at that point and started getting othercontractors to look at the situation....manywouldnt TOUCH the work...they all wanted to do a tear-off and start over.....We luckily found one guy who specializes in repairs of this nature.....he did a beautiful job fromn what I can tell and no more leaks.....but I have numerous other issues remaining and am out of money.

The building inspector has refused to get involved, saying this is an issue between me and the contractor.

Apparantly , in my area, all building inspectors do is collect the tax from contractors who choose to follow the law and pull permits. What a waste.

I am currently gathering info and estomates on what itwill cost to fix thesoffit/facia and gutters...so far, again, everyone wants to rip off and redo it all......

The BBB is a waste of time......havent tried the attorney general in my state yet but have been told it isalso a waste of time.

The WORST part is that this guy, when we fired him, said he would be filing a lien on our house to collect the money in the stopped check and hung up on us. That was almost 4 months ago.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

shadango said:


> I have found the building inspector in my area to be useless.
> 
> Had a roof and soffit/facia/gutter installation done back in June.
> 
> ...


If your contractor puts a lein on your house for the money owed, go and post a bond on the lein.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks to all who replied. I agree with Shadango. The Building Inspector is useless. I think he knew the contractor. 

On Friday, we reached an oral agreement. I told him we would split the $3,000. He would keep $1500, and he would pay me back $1500. He agreed to these terms and we have parted ways. I realized that we were both going to lose on this deal and it was better to take this loss and tear it down and start over. 

The problem now is, I signed the agreement, but he hasn't faxed it back to me. 

I'm probably going to lose the whole thing. Pretty ridiculous but you can't trust anyone these days. I have a sour taste in my mouth for builders. I guess I could blame the US government for putting us in a financial bind that causes these people to take even more shortcuts.


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## Ron6519 (Mar 28, 2007)

buletbob said:


> If your contractor puts a lein on your house for the money owed, go and post a bond on the lein.


Bob, what does this do?
Ron


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

it keeps him from collecting any interest on the money he will loose. if you loose you just pay the initial cost of the amount held. I have heard this being done but do not have any experience for posting one. I would speak to your attorney, Good Luck BOB


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## shadango (Jun 8, 2008)

I am not sure how I could lose, really.....I am nervous just because I am that type...everyone who has heard/seen my story thinks I would win hands down, though I know nothing is 100%....

Basically, like I said, he packed up and left the job with numerous things remaining to be done promising he would be back....

He talked me into a $1,000 hold-back to ensure he would come back (I should have refused to pay him at all, but wanted to be a "good guy").....he even signed an agreement that said he would forfiet the $1,000 if he didn't complete the repairs by a certain date (we gave hin two weeks...he had already spent 4 weeks on a job that he and other contractors said would take about 1.5 weeks total)........he then proceed to never call us again.

Turns out that the $1,000 he volunteered to forfeit was a tiny percentage of the cost it will require to do the job over.

My problem with posting a bond (which I had considered) is that I end up paying interest on it anyways...I dont have $3,000 laying around so it would have to come out of my home equity line...so I would end up paying interest on it anyways.

Also, I have since hired another roofer to come and fix the biggest issues (two major leaks and the ridgevent was peeling off the house as it was installed with 1.25" nails....not even enough length to make it thru the shingles to thedeck!)

Here is are links to some pictures of the work that had to be redone on a roof that was only 3 months old....to the tune of $3600....if anyone is interested...sorry to hijack this porch thread...I just wanted the original poster to know he is NOT alone!

Details that needed attention
http://s349.photobucket.com/albums/q391/shadango_bucket/details and defects/?albumview=slideshow

Before and after photos of work to correct leaks and ridgventing
http://s349.photobucket.com/albums/...Fixing the roof problems/?albumview=slideshow


Photos of what my contractor called "framing" -- before and after --- I was charged a few hundred dollars to do the extra "fraiming he did...in this case, basically tacking two 2x4s to rotted wood...he was supposed to fix any issues, at extra cost of course....instead he decided to tack the 2x4s up.....I decided to redo it all myself...I couldnt remove the one 2x4 he tacked up as he had nailed parts of the roof to i and I didnt want to cause an issue....I figured I couldnt do any worse than what he did....I replaced a section of the sill, the rear ledger board and sistered a new board into the right ledger board....
http://s349.photobucket.com/albums/q391/shadango_bucket/shed framing/?albumview=slideshow


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Just wanted to update, I dropped off this site a few years back, but I did end up finishing this project myself. It took me over a year, but I managed to do all the work myself. I ended up losing money by settling after firing the original contractor, but my porch will be there long after the house falls down. lol

Here is the finished product. I can't thank the very informative people from this site enough. You gave me the courage to tackle this and become informed as to how a finished product should look. I sold the house last year and now live in Colorado.


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## AndyGump (Sep 26, 2010)

Well, very nicely done.

Good on ya as the Aussies would say.

Andy.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks, I actually tore it all down and started from scratch. Contractor ended up giving me $1500 back out of the $3000 I paid, and I was able to salvage some of the wood by cutting the ends of the joists flush and decreasing my deck from 10x32 to 8x32. I gave the decking boards to a friend for his back deck.

It all worked out in the end. Wife was in love with it and now we've moved to Colorado.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

By the way, the original contractor keeps getting sued. He moved and no one was able to find him. I got really lucky getting some money back from him.

http://imgweb.charlestoncounty.org/...cy=10002&casenumber=2013CP1006478&docseq=P3A1


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Really weird, he has a new company and he appears to be doing very well...

http://charlestonlivingmag.com/no-place-like-home


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## Beachfront (Aug 5, 2015)

my5sons said:


> Just wanted to update, I dropped off this site a few years back, but I did end up finishing this project myself. It took me over a year, but I managed to do all the work myself. I ended up losing money by settling after firing the original contractor, but my porch will be there long after the house falls down. lol
> 
> Here is the finished product. I can't thank the very informative people from this site enough. You gave me the courage to tackle this and become informed as to how a finished product should look. I sold the house last year and now live in Colorado.


House looks awesome great job!!! :thumbsup: Do you have any plans on doing a rebuild in Colorado?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Beachfront said:


> House looks awesome great job!!! :thumbsup: Do you have any plans on doing a rebuild in Colorado?


No plans yet. I'll eventually be rebuilding the back deck and making our upper deck of our new house (outside of the master bedroom) larger.

Here is the deck I rebuilt in the back yard of my old house.


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Here is the back deck at the new house. I want to use 6x6 posts and make a larger upper deck and extend the bottom deck around the bay window. Not sure when I want to tackle it though.


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## Beachfront (Aug 5, 2015)

my5sons said:


> Here is the back deck at the new house. I want to use 6x6 posts and make a larger upper deck and extend the bottom deck around the bay window. Not sure when I want to tackle it though.


Do you have any plans for backyard lighting? Or motion sensors?


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## my5sons (Oct 29, 2008)

Beachfront said:


> Do you have any plans for backyard lighting? Or motion sensors?


I have lighting next to the garage door with motion sensors and above the deck.


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