# layover an Ike-affected roof



## WarrenDar (Apr 30, 2009)

This roof is 8 years old and some shingles were blown off by the massive Ike hurricane in Houston. One day after the incident, we immediately had a contractor temporary covered it with some new shingles instead of using the ugly blue tarps to buy us time to evaluate our roof fixing options. 

More facts: about 15 of the 25 tabs (this is a 33.4 squares roof) were being removed from wind-related looseness (rather than totally blown off the roof, which are about 10 tabs). Of the blown off ones, the black roof felt was still there to protect from water penetration. There was no leaks. With that history discussed, we want to explore our options. One option is a layover with a 30-yr and 130 MPH laminated-type shingles since the existing shingles are:
a) still in good condition (see pics), 
b) is flat
c) not brittle nor crack. 

With those variables, we concluded its substrate is a good candidate for an overlay. So here are the questions for the pros on this board:

1) Do you agree it is indeed a good candidate for a layover? Yes, money saved does play a role since the insurance $ net us only $2,000 after depreciation and deductible.

2) If so, how do we do the valley flashings? Do I tear of the tabs of the existing valley and reflash or lay the metal flashing over the existing shingles and the new shingles over the new flash?

I hope I give enough information to help you help me. Thanks for your inputs.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

A 2nd layer lasts a minimum of 25% less time than an original layer, due to trapped heat pockets between the layers.

Did your insurance company reimburse you for a complete tear-off?

They are obligated to pay you the replacement cost of your signed contract minus your deductible, which I hear is quite high in Texas, like around 2% or more of the value the house is insured for.

They will tell you that"This Is As Much As We Are Going To Pay", but that is not what your insurance contract with them states.

Do you need a referral to anyone near Austin? I know a good guy from another forum. The company name is Ranch Hand Roofing and ask for Mark ands tell him you were referred by me. He is really one of the better guys out there.

Ed


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

*Lay-Over Services Include:*
*<> Remove small sections of existing roof system for proper inspection of roof deck.
<> Remove tabs of existing shingles (3 courses up from eave).
<> Cut exsisting shingles overhang on gables back flush and install new dripedge.
<> Remove all existing hip & ridge caps.
<> Remove tabs of existing shingles from all valleys.
<> Visual inspection of all existing wall and chimney flashings (both sub and counter flashings).
<> Install new roof system.
<> Clean-up of all debri from old and new materials and haul them away.

I respect Ed's opinion as much if not more than any other roofers who post in this forum, but, we'll have to agree to dis-agree on this issue.
I have spoken with rep's from manufacturers, material supply stores and dozens of other roofing contractors and not one has ever been able to provide me with anything but suspicions, educated guesses, etc.

The home I presently own / live in was a lay over going on 19 years ago,
I have been saying I'm gonna re-roof it for two years now,
it has never leaked, never had any tabs blow off '3 tab shingles' and has not started the curling / cracking process yet, thus I'm probably not gonna do it this year either.

Lay overs are the same as new construction and re-roofs,
if installed properly they'll last.

Steve E Fox Sr.

I just copy and pasted most of this from my website, thus the color.

*


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Sorry,
I forgot to answer your question.

From what your telling us here and from what I see in the pictures, yes,
your home is a candidate for a lay over.

If the existing 3 tab shingles are of standard size 'not metric' than make sure you use standard size dimensional shingles.

Do not install new felt over the existing shingles, that will prevent the new shingles from 'nesting' laying properly over the existing.

Make sure you question the roofers details for wall flashing's,
I use roof cement in the tube, inter lapped between each course of shingles just like step flashing's are installed.
Plus clean and re-caulk any counter flashing's.

Make sure they re move all existing ventilation units, plumbing stack flashing's etc., and reinstall new.

Good Luck, and remember, the more questions you ask your contractor,
the better service your going to receive.


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## WarrenDar (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks, folks for your opinions thus far. To answer Ed's question of insurance reimbursement: GEICO gave us around $11K for the roof job (tear-off was accounted in their estimate sheets). Minus $5K for depreciation, minus $4K for deductible (2% of $200K home), thus netted us $2K. The new shingles for this 33.4 squares roof is around $4.5K, new drip edges, nails, labor (subcontract out), and now new vents (per Steve above) would brings us to around $8K. Thanks Ed for the Austin referral. However, in Houston, we have tons of experienced roofers due to our infamous hurricanes hotbed, I just needs to weed out the "pro" from the "semi-pros", along with the fly-by-nighters, to maximizes my ROI.

Thanks Steve for the tips, but do have a couple of questions: 
1) *About remove tabs of existing shingles from all valleys - If so, wouldn't the valley's slope areas LOWER than the rest of the roof since it only has one layer of shingles compares to the rest of the roof overlay and thus creates an uneven ripple effect in the process? IF so, how do I handle for that or is that an assumption that I may have missed?

*2) I read the same about replacing all existing ventilation units and reinstall new. If they are no damaged, can I just reuse them after paint it to match roof's colors. Or the fact that the existing nails on it after pulling out makes it a damaged item?


Thanks in advance


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

When I say remove tabs from the valley, I mean just the tabs that actually touch 'run into' the valley, than run your new strip of ice & water shield or metal and that will eliminate any dip.
If your not going to run new ice & water shield or metal than skip the removal of tabs from the valley part.

I have re-used box / louver vents before with no problem,
but if you have plumbing stack flashing's with rubber tops they should not be re-used.
I have seen the plumbing stack flashing's fail during the life of a roof,
so I surely wouldn't risk re-using them.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

I'm going to ignore the question. The repairs need repair. Ed, Stteve, anybody else notice the keyway over keyway repair work?
Just don't use those idiots, whatever you do.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

There not lined up with one another, there just not ran in a 6" pattern.
I have never ran that pattern myself, but have seen a few done that way, including the home my sister Donna is currently living in.
She's a renter, so have no idea who installed the roof.


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

The original installers applied the shingles in at least 2 different patterns.

There is a 5" offset on the left and a 6" on the photo of the valley at the bottom, to the right. There also are no detectable patterns elsewhere on the roof, where al of the lines are in disarray.

Regarding the surplus of "Pro's" in the area, watch out for all of the hit and run out of tow storm chasers. That is why I mentioned Mark from Ranch Hand Roofing, but maybe that is too far away.

Sly, often time I see a re-roof last an appropriate amount of time, but more often not. My view is the excess heat build up and lack of adding additional ventilation. I respect your view-point though, but remember, you notice your own quality installations more than the incorrectly installed ones for times of service, don't you. 

Vents are a cheap item to replace, so don't cheap out on 8 year old products by not replacing them. 

Ed


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## ratherbefishin' (Jun 16, 2007)

What affect does a lay over have on the wind warranty? I can't recall seeing anything about that in warranties or installation instructions on any products I've used.


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## Ranch Hand Roof (May 5, 2009)

OK, so I'm late to the party. Ed sent me info on this thread via the roofing.com bbs... & now I'm signed up for yet another forum. <sigh>

Anyhow, a few things.

1.


> how do we do the valley flashings? Do I tear of the tabs, etc.


To me, this says you're trying to sub-contract this project yourself. A roof is too easy an area to cut corners & if you're unable to tell right from wrong on a roof, then you may get cheated in important areas.
This is assuming you're going to go down to ABC near Westheimer & hunt down a sub crew on your own.
2. Insurance is paying the bill, minus your deductible. You state "netted us", however that's not right. Your depreciation is a recoverable dollar amount, so once the work is complete, they WILL send this money. The $ 2,000.00 you mention is merely their 1st payment.
3. If you are just now getting around to contracting out the job, then insurance owes you more money. Prices have adjusted upwards & a good contractor will make a new request to your insurance co. for added money on a supplemental.
4. In Texas, the cost for new construction (no tear off, no felt, shingles only), i.e. the difference for NOT doing a total re-roofing is going to be around $ 20.00 - $ 25.00 or so on a per square basis. 

On a 34 square job, that's a total "savings" of $ 850.00 (maybe less since the reveal tabs need to be trimmed off on the 1st 3 courses, the valleys need to be trimmed up, hip & ridge cap needs to be removed, modified flashing, etc.) 

*Is all of this aggravation & wringing of hands really worth $ 850.00??*

5. Me, I'd do a layover but only if the customer acknowledges in writing that they don't get a full warranty (more like a 30 second warranty). SlyFox mentions cutting away selected sample areas on the roof, but really, that's just getting dressed in a closet with the lights off; some days, you'll end up looking pretty ugly when it's all done.

Again, $ 850.00... is it really worth it?


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> The original installers applied the shingles in at least 2 different patterns.
> 
> There is a 5" offset on the left and a 6" on the photo of the valley at the bottom, to the right. There also are no detectable patterns elsewhere on the roof, where al of the lines are in disarray.
> 
> ...


Yes, when I say they will last, I mean if they are installed properly.

That statement stands on all work tho, roofs of all sort 'new construction, re-roofs or lay overs' will only last son long as there installed properly.

You know from previous discussions that I always recommend re-roofs first,
that's with out a doubt the best way to go and we both agree on that.
We just disagree on lay-overs being an acceptable alternative tho.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

*Is all of this aggravation & wringing of hands really worth $ 850.00??*

5. Me, I'd do a layover but only if the customer acknowledges in writing that they don't get a full warranty (more like a 30 second warranty). SlyFox mentions cutting away selected sample areas on the roof, but really, that's just getting dressed in a closet with the lights off; some days, you'll end up looking pretty ugly when it's all done.

Again, $ 850.00... is it really worth it?

Just walking the roof during the estimate process will let you know if there's any bad decking concerns, if there are than removal of the shingles and underlayment in that/those area's will let you know the scope of the problem.
Thus it's more like being in the dark closet, than having enough since to turn the lights on while your getting dressed.

The price difference will be larger than what your quoting.
You don't go by the price of what new construction would be and add,
you go by what a re-roof would be and subtract.
If a re-roof cost a thousand a lay-over would cost eight hundred.

I'm not going to guess on what this home owners savings would be because I would have to estimate the amount of eaves, gables, walls, hips/ridges and valleys, etc, etc.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

ratherbefishin' said:


> What affect does a lay over have on the wind warranty? I can't recall seeing anything about that in warranties or installation instructions on any products I've used.


According to rep's from Tamko, Certainteed and OC the warranties don't change.
It's just a matter of proper installment the same as in new construction and re-roof issues.
I haven't gotten a reply from Gaf/Elk, Atlas and IKO yet.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

To me, this says you're trying to sub-contract this project yourself. A roof is too easy an area to cut corners & if you're unable to tell right from wrong on a roof, then you may get cheated in important areas.
This is assuming you're going to go down to ABC near Westheimer & hunt down a sub crew on your own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the impression I got from the home owners post,
if he is going the route of picking up a roofer on the streets than I agree with you when you say he will be putting his families valuables in a high risk situation.
The impression I got was he was weeding out roofers like that to find a quality contractor.


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## Ranch Hand Roof (May 5, 2009)

Slyfox said:


> The price difference will be larger than what your quoting.
> You don't go by the price of what new construction would be and add,
> you go by what a re-roof would be and subtract.
> If a re-roof cost a thousand a lay-over would cost eight hundred.


 
In Texas, the sub-labor price per square for a 'basic, 1 story walkable' is around $ 45.00.

In Texas, the price for new construction on the same roof is going to run around $ 20.00 to $ 25.00 per square (this is with felt already in place, & since we all know felt goes pretty fast, this mostly means no added trip charge because it's just about more effort to drive out there than to actually dry it in).

Take a full re-roofing price per square, subtract the new construction cost & then add back in the extra effort for all the hip & ridge trimming, valley trimming, reveal cutoffs, flashing adjustments... 

I'm confident in my price.

$ 850.00.

:cowboy:


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## Ed the Roofer (Jan 27, 2007)

Just an FYI for you Sly.

Mark, from Ranch Hand Roofing, in my opinion, is one of the upper level elite contractors on the boards, just like the small circle of contractors that you and I both respect.

Plus, he makes really cool drawings for his posts and for his customers, so they can visualize what and where he is talking about. :thumbsup:

Now, if I could only convince him to sign up to yet another Forum or two, he-he-he-he-he.....:whistling2:

He would really be an asset over on either www.RoofingTalk.com or NRGforums where Chris also has all sorts of goodies in store for NRG Members, like The Roofing Channel and Roofing Campus and Roofing Entrepeneur, etc...

Ed


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## Ranch Hand Roof (May 5, 2009)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Now, if I could only convince him to sign up to yet another Forum or two, he-he-he-he-he.....:whistling2:


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Ranch Hand Roof said:


> In Texas, the sub-labor price per square for a 'basic, 1 story walkable' is around $ 45.00.
> 
> In Texas, the price for new construction on the same roof is going to run around $ 20.00 to $ 25.00 per square (this is with felt already in place, & since we all know felt goes pretty fast, this mostly means no added trip charge because it's just about more effort to drive out there than to actually dry it in).
> 
> ...


There's a difference between a cover-over and a lay-over.

A cover-over is simply installing new shingles over top of existing.
A lay-over is when you encapsule the existing with new, using flashing, drip edge, new shingles, etc.

A cover-over wouldn't take much longer to install than a new construction roof.
A lay-over will be much closer to the time frame of a re-roof.


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## Slyfox (Jun 13, 2008)

Ed the Roofer said:


> Just an FYI for you Sly.
> 
> Mark, from Ranch Hand Roofing, in my opinion, is one of the upper level elite contractors on the boards, just like the small circle of contractors that you and I both respect.
> 
> ...


I assumed that when I read his post and saw you had asked him to join over here.
I know you would not invite anyone who was less than a professional.


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## tinner666 (Mar 14, 2005)

Slyfox said:


> I assumed that when I read his post and saw you had asked him to join over here.
> I know you would not invite anyone who was less than a professional.


 Oh Yeah! He let me in! :laughing:

Seriously though, look at the first pic a bit more closely. At the bottom of the valley. 3 replacement shingles. # 2 and #3 are keyway over keyway. Or I should get different glasses.


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## ratherbefishin' (Jun 16, 2007)

Slyfox said:


> According to rep's from Tamko, Certainteed and OC the warranties don't change.
> It's just a matter of proper installment the same as in new construction and re-roof issues.
> I haven't gotten a reply from Gaf/Elk, Atlas and IKO yet.


Thanks, Sly. I wondered about that because in the cold climate I moved from it seemed to be fairly common practice, but here on the coast, except for a couple old "half fast" obvious DIY jobs, I haven't seen it done at all. My first thought was wind, but I guess it's the heat factor.


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## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*Money*



WarrenDar said:


> This roof is 8 years old and some shingles were blown off by the massive Ike hurricane in Houston. One day after the incident, we immediately had a contractor temporary covered it with some new shingles instead of using the ugly blue tarps to buy us time to evaluate our roof fixing options.
> 
> More facts: about 15 of the 25 tabs (this is a 33.4 squares roof) were being removed from wind-related looseness (rather than totally blown off the roof, which are about 10 tabs). Of the blown off ones, the black roof felt was still there to protect from water penetration. There was no leaks. With that history discussed, we want to explore our options. One option is a layover with a 30-yr and 130 MPH laminated-type shingles since the existing shingles are:
> a) still in good condition (see pics),
> ...


you will get the depreation money back as soon as the job is done. But you have a limited window to get the work done. You are running out of time to get your money back, UNLESS you are able to give your adjuster a good reason you had to wait. LIKE everyone being too busy and you had to wait. DONT LEAVE THAT MONEY ON THE TABLE.:thumbup:


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## texas115115 (May 3, 2009)

*I was later than you*



Ranch Hand Roof said:


> OK, so I'm late to the party. Ed sent me info on this thread via the roofing.com bbs... & now I'm signed up for yet another forum. <sigh>
> 
> Anyhow, a few things.
> 
> ...


 
You said it all befor I did I should have kept reading.:thumbup:


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