# My Review: Valspar vs Behr vs Olympic vs ColorPlace



## Achilles97

Hello everyone,
I have read this forum for a long time but I finally registered so I could post this information:

This past week I painted an entire house. I decided to do each room in a different paint brand to directly compare the paints. I painted each room in the same color, a light peach, with a flat sheen. The walls pre-painting were the typical light-textured sheetrock walls painted flat white.


========= ColorPlace (Wal-Mart): ===========

Cost = $7.84 / gallon

I bought a 5-gallon bucket and two gallon cans. 

The 5-gallon had extremely poor coverage and strong oder. The paint seemed transparent. Third coat was necessary in some areas.

The 1-gallon cans were pretty good. Good thickness and good coverage. One good coat and a light second produced great results. I was surprised how good this paint was, considering the cost...

The 1-gallon paint was obviously darker than the 5-gallon paint. The 1-gallon matched the paint sample so it was the 5-gallon that was off. With such a difference in quality, I wonder if WalMart has a different supplier for the 5-gallon buckets and the 1-gallon cans.



============ Valspar - Ultra Premium ==================

Cost = $20 / gallon

This paint was noticeably thick. It had very good coverage and produced a very consistent, even coat. Low odor. My only complaint about this paint was that it was so thick that it made it difficult to load my brush, and the cut-in brushed areas left brush marks. I added a bit of water to the paint and it helped with the brush marks and did not compromise coverage. Overall, this paint was very good. The first coat produced a very consistent, smooth finish. The second coat was not crucial.



============ Behr - Ultra Premium Plus =================

Cost = $22 / gallon

I immediately noticed that this paint is very thin. Coverage is extremely poor. Picture-framing of the cut-in areas was very noticeable, making three coats necessary in some areas. The paint was so thin that I had to get heavy with the application, which led to paint runs. Strong odor. Overall, I was extremely disappointed in this paint and will not use it again.



============ Olympic - Premium =================

Cost = $15 / gallon

Labeled as Zero VOC

This paint was a perfect thickness, somewhere between the Valspar and Behr. Brushing had great coverage and did not leave any brush marks. Rolling was very smooth and picture-framing of the cut-in was eliminated on the first coat. Very low odor, the only thing I could smell was a chocolate-covered-cherry scent. The finish was very smooth and consistent. I did notice something odd - this paint sometimes bubbled when brushing. Very small bubbles but when the paint was dry there was no sign of the bubbles, so there was no harm.

Overall, the Olympic paint is my choice for best of the group of paints I tested.




I hope someone finds this information useful.

Thanks!


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## smathers

*Thanks*

Great info. I used Valspar and had some issues with the satin finish. After 2 coats some areas were not as "shiny" as others when hit with direct light. After reading this, I'll try Olympic for my next room.


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## Gymschu

Interesting info. Yes, you can get decent results with cheap paint. I have done whole houses/apartments with Wally World paint and it was decent paint. I don't recall it being $8 a gallon, more like $12 - $15 in my neck of the woods. I actually prefer Valspar if I'm going to go with a cheaper paint. Overall, I am still a Sherwin-Williams guy. Sometimes thicker doesn't mean better.........it just means a lot of "fillers" were used in the manufacturing process.


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## user1007

It is a nice comparison of box store only paints. You skipped Pittsburgh's sucky low end stuff sold under the same brand name and Dutch Boy, SWs sucky excuse for a retail brand though. 

Sorry, I am sticking with Benjamin Moore first but with no fights needed if I am asked to use Sherwin Williams. Even without my discounts I will walk anybody into either paint store and hand them contractor grades, if they want, far superior in durability, performance and price than anything a box store has.

Of course my clients realized they were only going to paint every so often and knew they were paying me through the nose. An extra $10 or whatever a gallon for paint didn't seem to phase them much.

All perspective I guess. I grow weary trying to explain the difference between real paint and crap in an overhyped box store can.


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## chrisn

sdsester said:


> It is a nice comparison of box store only paints. You skipped Pittsburgh's sucky low end stuff sold under the same brand name and Dutch Boy, SWs sucky excuse for a retail brand though.
> 
> Sorry, I am sticking with Benjamin Moore first but with no fights needed if I am asked to use Sherwin Williams. Even without my discounts I will walk anybody into either paint store and hand them contractor grades, if they want, far superior in durability, performance and price than anything a box store has.
> 
> Of course my clients realized they were only going to paint every so often and knew they were paying me through the nose. An extra $10 or whatever a gallon for paint didn't seem to phase them much.
> 
> All perspective I guess. I grow weary trying to explain the difference between real paint and crap in an overhyped box store can.


It's a losing battle:yes:


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## Gymschu

............"overhyped box-store hype." --sdsester. Quote of the year!


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## screwy

Sdster, if you ever have a couple of minutes, I'd love to her what the difference between a good paint and a cheap paint is.


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## Brushjockey

How a paint applies is one part of what is a good paint. And a big one. Stuff like ease of rolling, does it lay out or stay brushy and thick when brushed, does it flash easily etc

How it performs- ie- does it look good, feel nice to the touch, have color retention, resist burnishing, touch up well, have the ability to be washed without colorant coming off, changing colors or burnishing.

These are what we mean when a cheap paint is compared to a quality one. 

They all come in cans.


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## ccarlisle

If you've ever had the priviledge of seeing the workings of a major paint company research facility then you'd probably never again even consider buying less than a premium grade paint, because by then you'd know what a good deal you're getting for the $30 or so a gallon you paid - or conversely how much you're being ripped off buying anything less. 

Sure, it is a matter of perspective and 99.99% of people out there don't get to see a paint company from within, and therefore don't care. But there is a reason B-Moore and S-Williams paint do so well: $ milllions in research. Behind *their* research are the countless $ millions put into chemical research by chemical raw material suppliers like BASF, Rohm&Haas and others too many to name. 

It's finding the optimum balance of some 40 chemicals in a can of paint that becomes an art. And for their efforts to make my paint jobs look so good and easy to do, I'll gladly pay them the $20 a gallon or so difference as opposed to subsidizing mass merchandizers who shop only on price. 

:wink:


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## mustangmike3789

paint manufactures and chefs have a lot in common. anyone can toss a bunch of ingredients in a pot and call it soup. some people can do it better than others with quality ingredients and tried and tested methods. you can easily thicken a pot of watered down soup with some corn startch(cheap additive) but it wont do much for the flavor. you will have a pot of thick soup that still taste like water. the same concept goes into developing a good quality paint. paint can be made with good ingredients or cheap ingrediants with a lot of fillers. sorry i had to dummy it down to this but trying to explain pigments,solids, resins and binders to the averager DIYer doesnt seem to get the point across, just look at how long the behr paint thread has been going on. we can only give advise and recommendations with our hundreds of years of combined experience but it is still hard to compete with the box stores money and marketing campaigns that make their products seem superior. if only there were a taste criteria for paints, some would rate a notch above cat food. look at the advertising money put into "TANG "(the drink of the astronauts) back in the 70's, horrible product in my opinion but they sold loads of it.


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## user1007

Gymschu said:


> ............"overhyped box-store hype." --sdsester. Quote of the year!


But dammit you got the quote wrong!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## user1007

screwy said:


> Sdster, if you ever have a couple of minutes, I'd love to her what the difference between a good paint and a cheap paint is.


Any time. You can PM me if that is more comfortable. My Mom was an analytical chemist and research librarian for a paint developer. I put myself through school as an apprentice painter I suppose, learning from some the most crusty old bastards you can image. Went white collar for a time but missed the trades. Spent the last decades restoring antique homes and painting mainly interiors of the same. Only with real paint. 

By the way, not sure how you would find it but someone did a really nice posting of what it is in good and bad paint from the standpoint of what is actually in the can. Even I did not know it was so obvious. It might have been the ever running Behr bashing site showing that crap more water in it than any other brand listed.

Good paints are about binders, pigments, UV protectarants and ultimately the film you want as the surface when all dry and cure. Crappy box store paints just don't not never gonna got em. And for those of us who made a living at this? The crappy stuff is just hard to work with and you cannot trust it. So, if budget and saving chimp change per gallon compared to my labor was the issue. I had no problem putting a contractor grade of major paint store paint on for you. It still would be cheaper and better than the box store stuff.

You know, painting and rocket ship design really go together? Nonsense, but you know the real major difference from us pros and DIYers? And we had the same learning curve offered us. I hope most of my brethren use good paint, high end tools, and elegant practices with regard to the worksite.

I didn't wake up one day knowing how to almost pinstripe with 2-12 inch angled sash brush. Some of it is practice. But with things like the new frog tape type products (seldom used tape myself) it is almost impossible for a DIYer to screw up if they would only listen on this site and buy good, quality stuff from a paint store.


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## ccarlisle

Actually, sdsester, that post you are referring to, although quite interesting, was a bit off-target. It compared the spec sheets of different brands of paint and came to the conclusion that a higher solids paint gave the better quality...in paint manufacture, this is not always the case but the article furthermore didn't compare a latex paint of company A to a latex paint of company B. It compared a latex paint to say, an alkyd paint, to say a glaze - and that's not accurate.

Solids is a false indication of the quality of a paint just as size of the engine is an indication of a good car...excellent cars come with small engines just as big cars can come wth duds. Put it this way: a good paint chemist can give you a high solids paint that you would be crazy to put on a wall. It is just a wrong to compare solids for other things too, like shampoos. Again solids does not equal quality...so what does?

To take another posters food analogy, a better view of paint quality is it's all in the blend of quality ingredients. The difference is that whereas a food dish can taste fine, a good paint has to be optimum down to the micron-visible-level i.e. under a microscope - whereas the only indication that your food dish was crappy is the time you end up spending with the runs..LOL


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## mustangmike3789

Ccarlisle, i was one on the op's on the thread that you mentioned. the point of comparing the solids was mainly for spread rate coverage and an ideal of cost of what you are really buying in a can of paint based on the numbers of the solids % given to me. i didnt check to see what tpyes of paints were in the compairison, just pure #'s. solids are very important when selecting a paint. solids such as your pigments are there for many reasons such as rust inhibiting,decrease permability, hiding power, color, mechanical reinforcement the list goes on. those are some of the characteristics that i am looking for when i choose a coating. i mean.... we all know that a gallon of 100% solids paint will cover 1604 sqft @ 1mil dry film thickness you could make a gallon of 30% solids paint cover this same area if you thin the **** out of it, but it wont be 1 mil dft. the more solids you have the better your ability to build, cover and hide. there are other important solids such as types of resin which can be made of solids and require a solvent to disolve it and help aid in application. these resins, binders and additives help in film building and abitlity to adhere and not sag during curing. but does any of this info get passed on to the average DIYer.(NOPE) that is why i tried to simplify it with the food analogy. i must make a correction before we start getting soup recipes posted on here. you can make a soup that has a good flavor with cheap ingredients (i think we've all done it with ramen noodles). the point was to make a quaility product out of quality ingredients, not to produce something for human consumption that just scored high enough to be classed just above cat food. im sure that most of the pros can relate to the properties of good coatings without a breakdown of the chemical make up of paint. the point that most are tring to get out is to buy "real paint" from a trusted "real paint store" with not only good products but also a staff of highly trained professionals that deal in PAINT everyday, not somewhere with the guy that was putting up the latest christmas displays and stacking bags of mulch.


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> The point that most are tring to get out is to buy "real paint" from a trusted "real paint store" with not only good products but also a staff of highly trained professionals that deal in PAINT everyday, not somewhere with the guy that was putting up the latest christmas displays and stacking bags of mulch.


Oddly enough, the Sherwin-Williams "real paint store" nearest me - where I tried to do business but found them to be a bunch of arrogant and unhelpful arses - is now closed, and the building is for sale.

Perhaps too many people, like me, decided that the 5% discount they offered on their $55 per gallon paint was simply not enough to make it worth putting up with the "highly trained professionals" in the SW Store.


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## mustangmike3789

Thanks for that info. Anyone interested in a building with a good coat of paint in it.


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> Thanks for that info. Anyone interested in a building with a good coat of paint in it.


Mehh... The interior is probably coated with Behr Paint.


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## mustangmike3789

Dear, chrisn/"Mr. Real paint from a real paint store". I understand yur frustration on this topic. I have literally broken this down to making a pot of soup and still can't seem to get the point across. I should give up too before the violent side of me comes out. I can't simplify it any better that saying " if I put this nail to your head and drive it in with a hammer...... Will you get the point." Some people will never get it. There is a saying" a man changed agaist his will is of the same vision still" I guess that applies here too!


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## ltd

real paint store vs big box ,am a sherwin williams guy use it all the time never a problem ,but i have to say for some applications i can roll out a room with lets say a valspar 2000 eggshell contractor grade sold at lowe's about 20 dollars . and i could roll a room out in s/w super paint about 45 dollars and you would not be able to tell the difference . OK is sherwin williams a better paint ? yea a little better .i guess it should be for 25dollars more. what im saying is if i did not get my prices a the real paint stores .i would go big box no problem .i can make that paint work.


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> Dear, chrisn/"Mr. Real paint from a real paint store". I understand yur frustration on this topic. I have literally broken this down to making a pot of soup and still can't seem to get the point across. I should give up too before the violent side of me comes out. I can't simplify it any better that saying " if I put this nail to your head and drive it in with a hammer...... Will you get the point." Some people will never get it. There is a saying" a man changed agaist his will is of the same vision still" I guess that applies here too!


I think it's you that's missing the point.

Not everyone worships at the altar of Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore Paints. Are they good paints? Absolutely. The only paints? Not even close. Better paint than Behr? No doubt.

Not everyone is going to choose to buy the most expensive paints on the market. That does *not* mean that said people are stupid. Nor does it mean - as one "professional" claimed - that said people are dumber than 5th graders. Sometimes we *want* and *fully intend* to buy less expensive paint, because we know that we'll be repainting the rental house in less than 2 years anyway.

You yourself said you ate Ramen Noodle Soup. Does that mean you were stupid for eating it, because there were better soups on the market? Or does it mean that it was what was in your budget at the time, or maybe even that you intentionally chose to save money by eating the cheaper soup? 


It's perfectly clear why the rank & file professional painter wants to use the better, more expensive, paints. Two of my cousins are professional painters, with over 60 years of experience between them. They'd much rather use BM than Dutchboy, SW than Behr.. Part of the reason is that they can one-coat most jobs, which means they make more per hour, and they pass the cost of the more expensive paint onto their customers. So *of course* they want to use the better, more expensive paint. It makes perfect sense.

But it doesn't always make sense for everybody in all situations.


Now... Before y'all start bashing on me for "owning stock in Home Depot" or being a "Behr Paint spokesman," I'll simply say to save it. I have absolutely no vested interest in either. There are a lot of paints I'd rather use than Behr, and a lot of places I'd rather shop than Home Depot.

What I *will* do is continue to say that this obsessive bashing of Behr Paint - while ignoring all other mid-grade paints - is stupid. That is all.


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## 95025

ltd said:


> real paint store vs big box ,am a sherwin williams guy use it all the time never a problem ,but i have to say for some applications i can roll out a room with lets say a valspar 2000 eggshell contractor grade sold at lowe's about 20 dollars . and i could roll a room out in s/w super paint about 45 dollars and you would not be able to tell the difference . OK is sherwin williams a better paint ? yea a little better .i guess it should be for 25dollars more. what im saying is if i did not get my prices a the real paint stores .i would go big box no problem .*i can make that paint work*.


When my wife & I bought our first home 25+ years ago, she bought 5 gallons of "clearance" paint, at KMart, for $4 per gallon. It was crap, and it took at least 3 coats to get coverage.

But we made it work. The finished product looked good. In fact, 7 years later when we sold the house for 2-1/2 times what we paid for it, the dining & living rooms still had that paint on the walls - and the paint was one of the things the buyers really liked. Go figure.

A good painter can work with lesser-quality paint just fine. He may not like it very much, but it can easily be done.


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## mustangmike3789

I'm not trying to hurt anyones feelings or to make everyone else look stupid. I have applied mant of these coatings myself and have had "ok" results from good/expensive and cheap/sorry paint. Price doesn't make the determing factor for me, that comes down to quality and workability. if I have to apply 3-4 coats of anyones paint vs. 2 coats of someone elses paint, that makes a big difference to me. As a coatings inspector that gets paid to watch paint dry, I could give a rats ass on who's paint you use but if it is not an approved coating that meets the min. Specs I can't allow it to happen. I can tell you that I have never seen paint from a box store allowed antwhere near a project that I am working on.
Its not about the money or who's paint is the most popular. It comes down to quality and proven testing from places such as ASTM, NACE or SSPC to prove that these products will last and do what they say their going to do. I understand that this is a DIY forum and that we aren't all coating nuke plants, oil platforms and bridges but the same concepts still apply. Use a GOOD quality product that is within YOUR budget to acheive the most cost effective results. That doesn't mean to buy the highest priced product on the market, but don't waste your money on a can of water with some color added to it. I painted my new hardi-plank siding with olimpic paint on a Sunday out of convienienc and hated evry minute of it. The real paint stores were closed. Sorry if I offended anyone, but cheaper doesn't mean more cost effective in the long run. 
Mike.


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## 95025

So you're a paint inspector, yes? What projects do you inspect? Not houses, I assume.


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## mustangmike3789

Yes you are right. I don't inspect houses unless you live under a bridge. I do own a house and have painted a few in my days. Like I said, I painted my new siding with olympic and hated it.I painted the inside of my house with tru-test, which is a cheap paint made by PPG that is made for true value hardware and I have a friend that owns a store so it was free. The tru-test did very good with 2 coats but the olympic sucked. Cost did not make one paint better than the other. Those were both cheap paints from box stores. Labor is still more expensive than materials on most jobs. Cheap paint does not save labor. My personal time is very valuble to me and most other people. What is your time worth to you???keep buying your paint from Homer in the overalls and see how well they treat you when you have a product failure. I have seen how they sovle those issues. They give you some more paibt for free.


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## Gary in WA

A lot of controversy from a 2 year old thread. Substitute "painting" for "flooring";

*"Constant Arguing over Products and Brands*

The flooring section of this site has gotten to be a bit of a handful lately. It seems like every week we are in here cleaning up another argument about what flooring product is the best and these arguments tend to break our posting rules by not respecting other members when they try to make their point. 

Additionally some of these posters are promoting a brand that they sell which is a violation of our advertising rules. Every contractor has an opinion on what products are the best and some even have relationships with manufacturers which is fine, but when your driven to promote a certain product by some financial incentive you really should take yourself out of the conversation.

Because the flooring section has had so many problems with this issue lately we are going to ask the following.
If someone posts a question that NEEDS a product suggestion feel free to mention a product and why you like it, but please stop there. Do no bash other products or other posters for suggesting a product. 

Pretty simple right? Now let's be civil and have fun. :thumbsup:

Thanks. 
__________________
*Nathan*"

Gary


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## 95025

mustangmike3789 said:


> Yes you are right. I don't inspect houses unless you live under a bridge. I do own a house and have painted a few in my days. Like I said, I painted my new siding with olympic and hated it.I painted the inside of my house with tru-test, which is a cheap paint made by PPG that is made for true value hardware and I have a friend that owns a store so it was free. The tru-test did very good with 2 coats but the olympic sucked. Cost did not make one paint better than the other. Those were both cheap paints from box stores. Labor is still more expensive than materials on most jobs. Cheap paint does not save labor. My personal time is very valuble to me and most other people. What is your time worth to you???*keep buying your paint from Homer in the overalls and see how well they treat you when you have a product failure. I have seen how they sovle those issues. They give you some more paibt for free.*


Weirdly enough, the few times I've bought and used Behr Paint from Home Depot, I have had absolutely no problems or product failure. I have had paint that wasn't tinted quite right, but they were happy to redo it correctly. 

On the other hand, I had horrible luck trying to deal with the nearest Sherwin Williams Store - a store that is now closed. They were rude, arrogant and clearly uninterested in doing business with me. 


I guess it just goes to show that we can't make blanket judgments.


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## mustangmike3789

There is a bad apple in every tree. There are bad paople running paint stores and bad cops in every department but dot let that make your final opinion. Remember this"temper is the one thing you can't get rid of by losing it".


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## user1007

Hicks,

I am or at least was a pro and I have used things like box store crap at times. People donate the stuff to Habitat, churches, schools and all and I did make it work in all cases. 

I am sorry but box store crap feels and works different. I know it sounds weird but when working every day at painting I could dip a brush or saturate a roller cover with Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams products and know exactly what was going to happen next.

Maybe we pros are snobbish about the tools and paints we use. But you know, we may actually know things. Bad analogy perhaps but....

"A Man holding a cat by the tail learns things he can in other way."

I don't sense the bad advice here you do. 

The Behr bashing thread annoys me too. It doesn't matter what those of us who do know paint say. Every other week some idiot buys the stuff, starts a new thread, whines, and then wants us to fix it. 

And look, I know the economy is tough and home improvement budgets are tight. But really folks. Don't skimp on paint. Come on. As a percentage expenditures paint really is not your major worry.


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## 95025

sdsester said:


> Hicks,
> 
> I am or at least was a pro and I have used things like box store crap at times. People donate the stuff to Habitat, churches, schools and all and I did make it work in all cases.
> 
> I am sorry but box store crap feels and works different. I know it sounds weird but when working every day at painting I could dip a brush or saturate a roller cover with Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams products and know exactly what was going to happen next.
> 
> Maybe we pros are snobbish about the tools and paints we use. But you know, we may actually know things. Bad analogy perhaps but....
> 
> "A Man holding a cat by the tail learns things he can in other way."
> 
> I don't sense the bad advice here you do.
> 
> The Behr bashing thread annoys me too. It doesn't matter what those of us who do know paint say. Every other week some idiot buys the stuff, starts a new thread, whines, and then wants us to fix it.
> 
> And look, I know the economy is tough and home improvement budgets are tight. But really folks. Don't skimp on paint. Come on. As a percentage expenditures paint really is not your major worry.


I fully understand what you're saying, and don't particularly disagree. Some paint is just better than other paint. You don't always get what you pay for, but for the most part that does hold true.

However, to say that all Behr Paint is crap, and only idiots use it, is simply not true. Period. In fact, that's downright stupid. 

Behr Paint runs right alongside Dutch Boy, Valspar, Glidden, and a whole host of other mid-grade paints. Not horrible, but certainly not the best paint available. So why are the self-proclaimed professionals not relentlessly bashing those brands?

And frankly, if somebody can't make Behr Paint work, it's because they're not a good painter.


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## Will22

Ironic that Color Place at the time of this test, was made by SW.


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## doctordog

again the question wasnt answered.....is expensive better or not..i guess its a matter of opinion


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## 95025

doctordog said:


> again the question wasnt answered.....is expensive better or not..i guess its a matter of opinion


That's a tough question to answer.

For the most part, the more expensive paints are better. The old maxim, "You get what you pay for," tends to hold true. It's pretty much a given that the $55 per gallon Sherwin Williams paint will be better than the $18 per gallon Glidden - as it should be.

The more appropriate question might be, "Is more expensive worth it?"


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## ccarlisle

From a chemical ingredients standpoint, the answer is an immediate and unqualified "yes"...just like anything else, there are cheap ingredients and there are expensive ingredients and the main reason why you use one or the other (apart from financial constraints) is quality of the finished product i.e the paint film - and therefore the lower the cost.

Research by the manufacturers of the ingredients (ie. people like Dow, BASF, Tioxide, R&H etc) aims at obtaining a "better" product i.e one that performs better, quicker or cheaper to give a specified performance. It is easy to make a $100/gallon (cost) paint given unlimited ressources, the challenge becomes how to make a paint that matches that performance at a suitable price for a given market...

It is also relatively easy - although more of a technical challenge - to make a cheap paint, using the minimum ingredients and technical ressources in manufacturing, but it is done and I qualify those paints as $8/gallon paints (for my own reasons). These budget paints have a place in the market, but come with their own set of limitations and lowering of quality.

Now what the consumer also sees is the cost of marketing. Home Depot can purchase a can of $8/gall paint and resell it for $32 in order to make a profit point for the whole store. B-M make a paint for $22/gall marks it up to pay for their stores and sells is at $44. Which is the better buy?

Most consumers think they can save by buying the $32/gall paint from H-D because they think they have "saved" $12/gall. They go off happy and apply a paint that they have to redo in half the time it would have taken the better paint to last - _at comparable _specifications. That's where the fly gets in the ointment.

What is "comparable specifications" to the average consumer? 'Looks "good"'? 'Goes on with a roller'? 'Matches the colour I want'? 'Saves me money'? 'Bought from one store'? Cleans up with water'? No VOCs?...

These are all valid reasons why the average paint consumer buys a paint; note that thickness of paint film (= longer wear life) or "rheology of paint" (= ease of application) are NOT criteria they would use (that's not their fault) but that these criteria affect *the cost* of a layer of paint. 

It's the classic mismatch. There's nothing wrong with $8/gall paint, but what some of us put forward is that $8/gall paint COSTS more, even though it is cheaper in price. But since people can't see into the future and will never know how much their paint film actually costs, they ignore the very things research aims at. 

But research does tell us that the more expensive the paint (not by consumers criteria), the better the film, and the lower the cost.


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## racebum

biggest thing i've noticed with SW or BM is every gallon is the same. with the big box stuff; sometimes it's wonderful, then others it isn't. valspar for example is just great in certain colors and horrible in others.


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## kitchendweller

I like Valspar! I didn't know until recently, but they have paints that were inspired by historical places! My painters led me to pick out a paint inspired by the southwestern La Fonda hotel of Santa Fe, NM. Call me a history dork, but I think it's cool to have paint colors inspired from historical places! I definitely would vote Valspar for that reason!


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## Brushjockey

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but understand a great color palate is marketing, a great paint is chemistry.


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## ccarlisle

Got that right! :thumbsup:


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## sheshechic

Simply paying more for better paint does necessarily result in a happy painter. If the painter doesn't have the ability/skills/knowledge then the paint job could be worse than any cheap paint that individual might use. Fore example take a look at the reviews of SW ProClassic. Over working a paint like that is going to be horrible. 

I'm type A and don't know that I would have the restraint. I'd need to practice and I'm considering investing in doing just that. We're painting cabinets my DH built.


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## Gatorb8

I have used regional brands of paint, national brands of paint, and big box brands and honestly I have seen very little variation in comparable prices. For my money, time, and overall value I prefer using Glidden. After listening to a local sales guy, researching what I was told, and taking a free five to try I was honestly shocked. It sprayed well and rolled well for the money. Seems they have made some pretty good upgrades lately.


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## Ms B

What about Olympic?


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## Gatorb8

Ms B said:


> What about Olympic?


I have used Olympic. It seemed to spread well but shrunk as it dried leaving a lot of uncovered spots. However, I have run across some who like it.


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## hammerheart14

DrHicks said:


> I fully understand what you're saying, and don't particularly disagree. Some paint is just better than other paint. You don't always get what you pay for, but for the most part that does hold true.
> 
> However, to say that all Behr Paint is crap, and only idiots use it, is simply not true. Period. In fact, that's downright stupid.
> 
> Behr Paint runs right alongside Dutch Boy, Valspar, Glidden, and a whole host of other mid-grade paints. Not horrible, but certainly not the best paint available. So why are the self-proclaimed professionals not relentlessly bashing those brands?
> 
> And frankly, if somebody can't make Behr Paint work, it's because they're not a good painter.


That is absolutely not true! Let's say my dad, who is a painter, uses Behr paint on an exterior house, he has a hunter green finish, and puts it over a universal grey primer. I believe in most cases, in an exterior paint job, you should use one coat primer, two coats finish. So, after putting on one coat of a grey primer, an dthen two coats of a hunter green finish, the green Behr paint hasn't covered completely even in two coats! THEN, you waste more material, time, money, ect. SO, in most cases you COULD make it work, but it costs you in the long run, and painters are in the biz like everyone else who has a job, to make money so they can live.


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## Brushjockey

A good painter could probably put on a halfway decent coat with a broom. He would also know not to waste his time.


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## Leah Frances

I think the value here for DIYers is learning there are different grades of paint; and that sometimes spending more money up-front saves you time and money later.


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## Gatorb8

My opinion, for what it's worth, is it depends on the customer. Some customers repaint often depending upon fashion trends, season, and what not. If you are this type of customer why would you want to spend $40 - $50 a gallon. Longevity wouldn't seem to be an issue. Now, if you are customer like my parents the paint may be on the wall for 20 years before you paint again. I can see spending more for the paint; ironically they purchased Glidden Spred Satin in 1990, $9.97 a gallon, and it still looked beautiful before they repainted. The only reason they repainted was to change the color.

There are quite a few factors that come into play when setting prices. One being the cost of colorants which in my opinion factory paint stores have the best quality colorants. Home Depot does not charge customers for colorant as they make up for it in volume. Second, buying power plays a role. Home Depot and Lowe's turn quite a bit of paint in a week and the more you buy the better your pricing. Third, some paint manufacturers also refine their own raw materials such as Akzo Nobel (dba Glidden Paints) allowing them to sell a better paint at a better value. In this point spending more doesn't necessarily mean better quality.

I have been in the paint industry for a little over 12 years now as a painter, paint consultant, trainer, and analyst and can honestly say it really depends on the customer and the job. An apartment complex that turns apartments every six months or so would be nuts to spend an enormous amount on paint. However, a hospital would be nuts to buy cheap paint with the amount of scrubbing and cleaning. Again, it all depends on the customer, the job, and the function.

Yes, I am partial to Glidden as I have never had a problem with their paints and grew up using Glidden working on my cousins paint crew. But, I love BM products above any other.


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## 95025

Gatorb8 said:


> My opinion, for what it's worth, is it depends on the customer. Some customers repaint often depending upon fashion trends, season, and what not. If you are this type of customer why would you want to spend $40 - $50 a gallon. Longevity wouldn't seem to be an issue.


Exactly. There are times when nothing but the best paint should be used. There are other situations in which it really doesn't matter.

In the end, if you're the customer it's your choice.


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## STL B.

I think the doc is correct.............behr paint fits the bill some times. Sometimes you get zero return on your investment (like paint in a rental unit) so why throw money away.

Or should the doc juct pay $50-$60gal to acheive that fresh paint smell and clean walls......................?

I dont use behr but I do use SW and feel that it is superior.........over priced? depends

Many people live in homes that arent even worth $100K..........Should they spent north of $40gal to get some color on their walls or freshen up their house before they sell?...........and lose money on their investment..........

I think people need to lighten up a little and understand this is simply the free market doing what it does. There is a demand for behr paint and home depot is just doing what makes since.........suppling said paint. 

If the paint was complete garbage and failed alot people would stop buying it.......period. But they still buying it soooooo it must not fail that often.


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## 95025

STL B. said:


> I think the doc is correct.............behr paint fits the bill some times. Sometimes you get zero return on your investment (like paint in a rental unit) so why throw money away.
> 
> Or should the doc juct pay $50-$60gal to acheive that fresh paint smell and clean walls......................?
> 
> I dont use behr but I do use SW and feel that it is superior.........over priced? depends
> 
> Many people live in homes that arent even worth $100K..........Should they spent north of $40gal to get some color on their walls or freshen up their house before they sell?...........and lose money on their investment..........
> 
> I think people need to lighten up a little and understand this is simply the free market doing what it does. There is a demand for behr paint and home depot is just doing what makes since.........suppling said paint.
> 
> If the paint was complete garbage and failed alot people would stop buying it.......period. But they still buying it soooooo it must not fail that often.


Exactly. 

I've said it before, and will say it again. IF there was a SW Paint Store near me, and the people working there weren't a-holes, I'd probably buy most of my paint there. Unfortunately, the *now-closed SW Store* that was closest to me was (obviously) poorly managed. Begrudgingly offering me 5% off their $55 per gallon paint was simply not going to cut it. Obviously it wasn't just me that got sick of their attitudes, or the store would still be in business.

Is SW Paint better than Behr? Sure - and I've never once said different.

Does it make ANY sense to ALWAYS use THE most expensive product available? Absolutely not. Only a complete fool would believe that. Those are the people who end up with $300,000 invested in a house that's only worth $200,000. They can brag all they want about using the best products available, but they're the only ones who can't see their own stupidity.


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## STL B.

I think that SW is giving their residental biz. to HD and lowes via. their pricing for the public. 

Years ago my mother inlaw had some sort of discount at SW through her job so I bought a 5gal of primer.........for north of $150..........I swore I'd never cross their threshold again.

I told my story to some guys on a job once and the painters looked at me like I was crazy, they told me how fair the prices were if you open an account. So I went to SW and told the manager how I felt about the pricing and asked if he could help. He asked me how much paint I buy every year and then said they could set me up with an account....so I did it and have been happy with the prices.

Funny story....I stoped in to SW one sat. to price some paint, there was only one girl working and several other customers (homeowners) in line. She finished up helping the folks that were at the counter then she told the customers she would be right back...........made a B-line to me and asked what I needed. I asked for prices on paints x,y and z, the prices were fair and I quietly remarked about how high the list prices were. She loudly said in a very mocking tone O no you dont have to pay those prices thats just for the HO's. I was kind of shocked at her actions but happy about the price I'd be getting. I think that a few of those folks drive straight to HD and never looked back.

The funny thing is when SW tries to upsell me on a better paint than what I want, I ask how much they want and usually say no. They start negotating like a used car salesman.........I normally walk out with a 1st teir paint for just a couple bucks more that the middle of the road paint I came there for.


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## mustangmike3789

that is true. if you go in with a bad demanding atitude you will probably get a bad price. the managers here this from demanding HO all of the time over 2 gallons of paint and they get sick of it so they will give them small discounts to insult them and drive them away. good attitude = good pricing, bad attitude is like "BEATING A DEAD HORSE",:laughing: your not going to get anywhere that way.


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## STL B.

Agreed...........I still think that they should have better pricing for HO's. HD and lowes sell millions of gallons a year thanks to SW's prices. If you ask me I think a 15% profit on 1 millon gallons is better that 90% profit on 1k gal's


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## mustangmike3789

due to the economy, lots of good places have gone out of business ranging from retail, restuarants and mainly construction driven companys. whats so funny about that. i know a lot of people that are out of work because the company that they worked for or owned went under. thats not funny at all.


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## user1007

I see several SW stores listed for Omaha and within a comfortable range of each other so suspect the company has hardly disappeared from the landscape. And Hicks, HD seems perfect for you. I would just as soon the likes of you shop in such places and not clutter lines up at the real stores. 

Year before last I was finishing up a restoration that started with the restoration of the exterior of a small Iowa dowtown. The box stores had killed it off and it was trying to repurpose but needed something so simple as a little help looking a bit less dead. 

None of the box stores stepped up to help with paint or materials. It was SW that did. Now I don't know if the gift sunk in but hope some caught on that they ought to do business with entities that give something back. 

Box stores that don't pay fair taxes or honest wages and benefits are not saving anybody any money long term.


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## HomesteadHero

*I was just talking about this...*

I hear what people are saying about the top quality brands of paint; however, it's not easy to sell a customer on a 5 gallon bucket of paint that costs $284.00, when there is a decent brand for $100.00 less. I wonder how many of these people who posted are able to sell that high priced paint in this year, 2011? People want affordable fellas and we need to be able to offer that to them. My Home Depot discount beats any other Big Name discount and I can offer my customer savings. If my Behr lasts as long as your Sherwin Williams, why pay more? It makes no logical sense. Plus, I can stock up on Behr and receive $20 rebates, plus my discount. That adds up to more business for me! I LOVE saving my customers money. WHY? Because they always come back. :thumbup: I may sell someone some Sherwin Williams, but if they feel I am gouging them, they won't be repeat customers. Bottom line-Find a paint that you like and stick with it. If you want it to last 10 years buy something of higher quality. If you're painting to sell it, slap on some Walmart brand and call it good. Paint for your needs, not your contractors preference.


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## user1007

mustangmike3789 said:


> sounds like a hard working american to me.


Nice compliment and thanks. Not sure where he got my resume and determined I assembled lawnmowers for Sears. That is news to me. I did have to fix all kinds of strange things that came my way as inventory became store owned. I did put lots of grills together for folk that could not follow directions. I did have to gap and switch out spark plugs and turn mower blades installed upside down over. Should any of you be wowed by the experience? Dunno. 

Sears did not work out because I could not do the lifting. It was a post career gig I tried when I realized my leg was torn up so badly I can never do ladders and all again. I am disabled these days but Hicks missed that in the copy of the resume he made up for me too.

And as for the millions of people Hicks has been able to hire having plowed away at the same boring job for 30 years and saving $47 on dress shirts? More power to him. Frugal, when appropriate, can be a very good thing. Cheap usually is not and can cost a lot. 

And the assumption I have never hired anybody on a scale proportionate to him? I seem to remember having staffs of people working for me and contractors of all kinds swarming around being paid for something I asked them to do. 

And expertise comes with doing things and being around it all. I developed and sold a landscaping and turf management firm in Northern California that still does well as far as I know. I never had less that 20-25 people working, all were legal and all got benefits. 

Now then, it is unlikely Hicks and I would ever cross paths. I did not do the kind of work he requires and frankly tolerates. Nor do any of my subs to this day. 

Oh well. We shall see what is next. I am doing some bidding, estimating and front end work for contractors that have done nice work for me over the years but just cannot get to reviewing drawings, client meetings and billings. I hope something meshes without me needing to be hands on anymore. 

I have been able to work white or blue collar when needed in the past so lots of my situation is really new and different. 

Sorry Hicks but I hardly feel insecure. I guess my comment about where I would prefer you standing in line was a bit petty. Sorry. You do make it hard to like you at all though you know? I will keep my mind as open as I can.

But Hicks, don't judge my work history or assume I took the job at Sears because it was all I could get. Out of nowhere came the DVT a few years back. I was in reasonably good health one day and the next? The clots traveled to my lungs and became instantly life threatening. Now, I just have the fact that all the valves in the veins of my left leg are gone for good with no pharmaceutical or surgical repair options. Venous stasis ulcers have set in. See attached. Gross looking and of course painful at times. Not life threatening for now though. Hicks, they and the leg are the reasons the Sears job did not work out. Please do not speculate otherwise.


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## Marty1Mc

I think this thread has gotten a little off target and there is a little too much testosterone. 

I am not a pro, but I see both sides in this argument. I have been a DIY'er my entire life (I am 54). 

If I were to hire (and I have hired a painter on one occasion) then I would want them to spend the extra money and get the best. Why? Because time is money and the faster and better the job can be done is simply cheaper. Labor will outstrip paint cost very quickly.

For myself, I use whatever I determine I should. The second house I bought I used SW because it was all that was available. There wasn't a Home Depot in 50 miles from my house. This was almost 30 yrs ago. But, that paint was fantastic. I had to strip the house first (2 story, 4 bedroom frame house) because the previous owners had someone paint right over dirt and it was all peeling. After I stripped the house, properly primed it and painted it white (2 coats). That paint never chalked, chipped or flaked. I only had to touch it up after 9 yrs and the color match was still perfect. It was definitely worth the money.

However, not all Behr paint is garbage either. I used the Epoxy paint for my garage floor which was heavily oiled. We prepped the floor, but there is no way to get that much oil out of concrete. I was quite concerned that any paint would adhere. Since my family has 10 cars (4 drivers) this garage gets used frequently. Not only has the paint stayed down, but has endured activity similar to a commercial garage. 

I have used Behr, Valspar, and SW inside my homes as well. I have had no paint failures on any brand and I have done a lot of painting on the houses I have owned. 

I think if I were a professional painter, I would be buying SW or the other name brands. A paint failure is expensive for a contractor. 

However, as a DIY, it is not necessary if you look at what you are doing. On the outside where it takes a high degree of labor to redo, a top brand is all I will use. It is worth it to me. On the interior, I really don't care if it takes a second coat as long as the coverage is even. Prep is the most important part anyway and I am finicky about that. So, a lesser brand if fine with me.


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## chrisn

Marty1Mc said:


> I think this thread has gotten a little off target and there is a little too much testosterone.
> 
> I am not a pro, but I see both sides in this argument. I have been a DIY'er my entire life (I am 54).
> 
> If I were to hire (and I have hired a painter on one occasion) then I would want them to spend the extra money and get the best. Why? Because time is money and the faster and better the job can be done is simply cheaper. Labor will outstrip paint cost very quickly.
> 
> For myself, I use whatever I determine I should. The second house I bought I used SW because it was all that was available. There wasn't a Home Depot in 50 miles from my house. This was almost 30 yrs ago. But, that paint was fantastic. I had to strip the house first (2 story, 4 bedroom frame house) because the previous owners had someone paint right over dirt and it was all peeling. After I stripped the house, properly primed it and painted it white (2 coats). That paint never chalked, chipped or flaked. I only had to touch it up after 9 yrs and the color match was still perfect. It was definitely worth the money.
> 
> However, not all Behr paint is garbage either. I used the Epoxy paint for my garage floor which was heavily oiled. We prepped the floor, but there is no way to get that much oil out of concrete. I was quite concerned that any paint would adhere. Since my family has 10 cars (4 drivers) this garage gets used frequently. Not only has the paint stayed down, but has endured activity similar to a commercial garage.
> 
> I have used Behr, Valspar, and SW inside my homes as well. I have had no paint failures on any brand and I have done a lot of painting on the houses I have owned.
> 
> I think if I were a professional painter, I would be buying SW or the other name brands. A paint failure is expensive for a contractor.
> 
> However, as a DIY, it is not necessary if you look at what you are doing. On the outside where it takes a high degree of labor to redo, a top brand is all I will use. It is worth it to me. On the interior, I really don't care if it takes a second coat as long as the coverage is even. Prep is the most important part anyway and I am finicky about that. So, a lesser brand if fine with me.


 
BINGO!:thumbsup:


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## DangerMouse

*sweep-sweep-sweep* Let's keep it nice folks.

DM


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## Raikon1988

renovator11 said:


> I like Valspar! I didn't know until recently, but they have paints that were inspired by historical places! My painters led me to pick out a paint inspired by the southwestern La Fonda hotel of Santa Fe, NM. Call me a history dork, but I think it's cool to have paint colors inspired from historical places! I definitely would vote Valspar for that reason!


they weren't so much 'Inspired' as they were literally refurbished using Valspar Paint...


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## user1007

Benjamin Moore has had an historical color collection forever. And it is much better paint than Valspar which is not even in the same class.


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## megz86

*Colorplace*

This was a very helpful post. Unfortunately I read it just a few days too late, as I painted my bedroom in a light grey Colorplace paint just the other day. It was an extremely thin paint that has a strong odor that is still lingering. It took us 3 coats to get rid of the splotchiness on just about the entire wall and it took me probably twice as long and twice as much paint as it should have. Next time I will definitely splurge on the more expensive paint to make my life easier and my paint turn out better.


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## Nailbags

screwy said:


> Sdster, if you ever have a couple of minutes, I'd love to her what the difference between a good paint and a cheap paint is.


The difference is this the pigment, the binders the solvents and it has to with amounts to ratio paints that have more solvents what evaporates when the paint dries leaves the pigment and binders behind to form that protective shell. 
Then the price I can get the same quality of paint from Rodda, Parker paint Kelly-moor paint at over half the cost of BM or SW it boils down to the first three things I wrote about. In no way am I say BM or SW are bad paints they just have a higher over head cost to sell their paint. Behr paint is OK Glidden is OK. Olympic paint used to be great when they were in Seattle WA and before they were bought out by PPG.
I have not used valspar but I am sure it offers quality too.


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## chrisn

Nailbags said:


> The difference is this the pigment, the binders the solvents and it has to with amounts to ratio paints that have more solvents what evaporates when the paint dries leaves the pigment and binders behind to form that protective shell.
> Then the price I can get the same quality of paint from Rodda, Parker paint Kelly-moor paint at over half the cost of BM or SW it boils down to the first three things I wrote about. In no way am I say BM or SW are bad paints they just have a higher over head cost to sell their paint. Behr paint is OK Glidden is OK. Olympic paint used to be great when they were in Seattle WA and before they were bought out by PPG.
> I have not used valspar but I am sure it offers quality too.[/quote]
> 
> 
> not really


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## JeepDan

*I'll stay with Valspar*

I worked as a painter thru school, you can say I have tried every paint on the market but mostly stuck with Sherwim, untill one of my clients requested Valspar for their building, He instructed me to use Valspar Duramax for the exterior and ultra premium for the interior, at the time I doubted his dessicion but went with it, as I started using the products I was impressed on both the coverage and spread rate of the paint, I then did my own comparison on side by side tests with sherwin and it was comparible or better to Sherwin but at a much lower price. As far as Olympic and Behr paints go, I can't say anything bad about them, but they are not products I would use in my home.


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## user1007

[/quote]
not really[/quote]
Mom was an analytical chemist and research chemist for at least one building that makes Valspar. She would be turning over in her grave. It is box store crap. :huh:


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## okrabay

I flip houses but I am not a pro painter. I do all the painting myself.

What i found was that Sherwin super paint is the best deal when they are having the 30 or 40% off sales. It will be cheaper than the others by a few dollars and this is better than Valspar or Behr.

But if they are not having a sale then I say Valspar is the one to buy.

I found with super paint and Valspar that if the walls are not textured and close to the color your painting then one coat will do it if you roll it on right.

With Behr I did not find this to be true and Behr tends to have a plastic look to it.

Super paint looks darn good and gives the house that expensive feel to it.

Valspar is the next best and I have no complaints on it at all. I use it unless Sherwin is having a sale then I go for Super Paint.

I have used Devoe mid grade and didnt like it- to thin and watery.

Kelly Moore is good but you dont find it on sale and is $5 more than Valspar.

Glidden I didnt like.

I plan to try Olympic out on the next house I do as well as Coronado just to try something different.

But if its on sale then super paint for sure.


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## pucks101

ltd said:


> real paint store vs big box ,am a sherwin williams guy use it all the time never a problem ,but i have to say for some applications i can roll out a room with lets say a valspar 2000 eggshell contractor grade sold at lowe's about 20 dollars . and i could roll a room out in s/w super paint about 45 dollars and you would not be able to tell the difference . OK is sherwin williams a better paint ? yea a little better .i guess it should be for 25dollars more. what im saying is if i did not get my prices a the real paint stores .i would go big box no problem .i can make that paint work.


Agree completely.


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## pucks101

I prefer Benjamin Moore paints due to the "paintability", meaning, to me they just feel right going up on the wall. But I also have used quite a bit of Behr. I don't think it's as easy to work with, and I don't think it gives quite as nice of a sheen (basically, their satin and eggshell finishes in comparison seem a little shinier than Ben Moore, so the Ben looks richer). But I expect a little difference when I'm spending $20-$30 more per gallon. That said, there are many situations in which I will still select Behr and take the savings. So yes, the paint from the "paint store" is better, but the "big box" is not selling crap, just a cheaper product, and it works fine. I really don't get the bashing, and whenever I see those types of ultra-biased comments it just makes me suspect any other advice that might be given by people who talk like that.


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## chrisn

pucks101 said:


> I prefer Benjamin Moore paints due to the "paintability", meaning, to me they just feel right going up on the wall. But I also have used quite a bit of Behr. I don't think it's as easy to work with, and I don't think it gives quite as nice of a sheen (basically, their satin and eggshell finishes in comparison seem a little shinier than Ben Moore, so the Ben looks richer). But I expect a little difference when I'm spending $20-$30 more per gallon. That said, there are many situations in which I will still select Behr and take the savings. So yes, the paint from the "paint store" is better, but the "big box" is not selling crap, just a cheaper product, and it works fine. I really don't get the bashing, and whenever I see those types of ultra-biased comments it just makes me suspect any other advice that might be given by people who talk like that.


 
What savings? As a contractor( I am guessing) do you supply materials? 
In my world the customer picks a color, I pick the paint and pass that cost on to the customer. Why would I use cheap paint?:huh:

The big box statement is certainly arguable:laughing::yes:
I will not get into it here

I lied


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## pucks101

Sometimes I charge for the paint, sometimes the HO buys the paint. If I buy the paint, I am going to the Ben Moore store. If HO wants to provide paint, they can go wherever they want. Like I've heard many other painters say, I let HO know any problems with application when using their paint may require labor adjustments, and I won't guarantee the finish quality. I am semi-retired and don't paint every day. I'm sure high production painters will have stronger opinions than me, but I just don't get the hatred for Behr because I think it works OK... When DIY'ers ask for advice, and they're repainting and changing colors frequently, and looking for savings, I think Behr covers fine and will last for at least those 5 years.


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## Matthewt1970

pucks101 said:


> That said, there are many situations in which I will still select Behr and take the savings. So yes, the paint from the "paint store" is better, but the "big box" is not selling crap, just a cheaper product, and it works fine. I really don't get the bashing, and whenever I see those types of ultra-biased comments it just makes me suspect any other advice that might be given by people who talk like that.


If you want saving then try some of the contractor lines of BM or SW. The bashing doen't come from just hating it because it is big-box. I have personally seen plenty of catastophic failures of Behr and read about quite a few more. The stuff is known to sag on the walls, it's like a box of chocolates when it comes to thickness, and even more known for peeling within a year. That's all I got to say about that. Even Gump knows not to paint with that crap.


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## ccarlisle

puck101, you are - by your own admission - what some might call an advanced DIYer when it comes to painting in that you paint more than occasionally, and are of the opinion that pretty well any paint will do the job. 

This is not a knock. I'm just saying that that is the perspective you personally have on it. Now we don't know if you're colour-blind or paint by numbers, we don't know if you have taste or not, have practical experience or not, have flair or not - or any other attribute - and we don't really care. You are one person with an opinion. And your opinion is fine...

So why knock the pro painters here who paint for a living, who have tons of experience in handling different paints in different situations, and who all seem to have come to the same conclusion about Behr/Valpar/Glidden (you name it) paints? Do you have any idea of the number of professional opinions that we have seen here over the past few years on this subject? What do you think they've formed an anti-Behr union and all have their daggers out for it?

No. Each one of these guys have made comparative trials using a number of brands and have come up with a list of paints that they prefer to use day-in and day-out. S-W and B-M are somewhere near the top, Behr is towards the bottom. By trial-and-error over a number of substrates in a number of conditions, they eventually gravitate to the paints that serve them the best, over time, day -in and day-out..

That doesn't mean these lower priced products won't do a good job in a given situation for the average once-a-decade DIY painter - because he doesn't have the discerning objective these pros have - and that's the marketing aim of Home Depot etc. Not the pros. 

So it comes down to optics; seen from a DIY perspective, Behr meets that standard. However from a knowledgeable perspective, it doesn't. Just depends on your viewpoint and where you are on the ladder.


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## pucks101

ccarlisle said:


> puck101, you are - by your own admission - what some might call an advanced DIYer when it comes to painting in that you paint more than occasionally, and are of the opinion that pretty well any paint will do the job.
> 
> This is not a knock. I'm just saying that that is the perspective you personally have on it. Now we don't know if you're colour-blind or paint by numbers, we don't know if you have taste or not, have practical experience or not, have flair or not - or any other attribute - and we don't really care. You are one person with an opinion. And your opinion is fine...
> 
> So why knock the pro painters here who paint for a living, who have tons of experience in handling different paints in different situations, and who all seem to have come to the same conclusion about Behr/Valpar/Glidden (you name it) paints? Do you have any idea of the number of professional opinions that we have seen here over the past few years on this subject? What do you think they've formed an anti-Behr union and all have their daggers out for it?
> 
> No. Each one of these guys have made comparative trials using a number of brands and have come up with a list of paints that they prefer to use day-in and day-out. S-W and B-M are somewhere near the top, Behr is towards the bottom. By trial-and-error over a number of substrates in a number of conditions, they eventually gravitate to the paints that serve them the best, over time, day -in and day-out..
> 
> That doesn't mean these lower priced products won't do a good job in a given situation for the average once-a-decade DIY painter - because he doesn't have the discerning objective these pros have - and that's the marketing aim of Home Depot etc. Not the pros.
> 
> So it comes down to optics; seen from a DIY perspective, Behr meets that standard. However from a knowledgeable perspective, it doesn't. Just depends on your viewpoint and where you are on the ladder.


You've got all this wrong - about me personally, and about what my point is. All I was trying to say is that I disagree with those of you who imply that DIY'ers and HO's are idiots for using or wanting to use Behr. I used it a few times and think it's good enough for DIY'ers who tinker around in or on their own house. Everything else you said about me was based on you misunderstanding my point, or me not doing a good job of making my point. But I certainly do not endorse Behr as a paint for professional painters, and I have never sold it to a customer to use on a job, nor have I ever recommended it.


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## chrisn

pucks101 said:


> Sometimes I charge for the paint, sometimes the HO buys the paint. If I buy the paint, I am going to the Ben Moore store. If HO wants to provide paint, they can go wherever they want. Like I've heard many other painters say, I let HO know any problems with application when using their paint may require labor adjustments, and I won't guarantee the finish quality. I am semi-retired and don't paint every day. I'm sure high production painters will have stronger opinions than me, but I just don't get the hatred for Behr because I think it works OK... When DIY'ers ask for advice, and they're repainting and changing colors frequently, and looking for savings, I think Behr covers fine and will last for at least those 5 years.


 
The HO, NEVER buys the paint I am going to use:no:


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## Gatorb8

pucks101 said:


> I prefer Benjamin Moore paints due to the "paintability", meaning, to me they just feel right going up on the wall. But I also have used quite a bit of Behr. I don't think it's as easy to work with, and I don't think it gives quite as nice of a sheen (basically, their satin and eggshell finishes in comparison seem a little shinier than Ben Moore, so the Ben looks richer). But I expect a little difference when I'm spending $20-$30 more per gallon. That said, there are many situations in which I will still select Behr and take the savings. So yes, the paint from the "paint store" is better, but the "big box" is not selling crap, just a cheaper product, and it works fine. I really don't get the bashing, and whenever I see those types of ultra-biased comments it just makes me suspect any other advice that might be given by people who talk like that.


Well states!


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## Gatorb8

ccarlisle said:


> puck101, you are - by your own admission - what some might call an advanced DIYer when it comes to painting in that you paint more than occasionally, and are of the opinion that pretty well any paint will do the job.
> 
> This is not a knock. I'm just saying that that is the perspective you personally have on it. Now we don't know if you're colour-blind or paint by numbers, we don't know if you have taste or not, have practical experience or not, have flair or not - or any other attribute - and we don't really care. You are one person with an opinion. And your opinion is fine...
> 
> So why knock the pro painters here who paint for a living, who have tons of experience in handling different paints in different situations, and who all seem to have come to the same conclusion about Behr/Valpar/Glidden (you name it) paints? Do you have any idea of the number of professional opinions that we have seen here over the past few years on this subject? What do you think they've formed an anti-Behr union and all have their daggers out for it?
> 
> No. Each one of these guys have made comparative trials using a number of brands and have come up with a list of paints that they prefer to use day-in and day-out. S-W and B-M are somewhere near the top, Behr is towards the bottom. By trial-and-error over a number of substrates in a number of conditions, they eventually gravitate to the paints that serve them the best, over time, day -in and day-out..
> 
> That doesn't mean these lower priced products won't do a good job in a given situation for the average once-a-decade DIY painter - because he doesn't have the discerning objective these pros have - and that's the marketing aim of Home Depot etc. Not the pros.
> 
> So it comes down to optics; seen from a DIY perspective, Behr meets that standard. However from a knowledgeable perspective, it doesn't. Just depends on your viewpoint and where you are on the ladder.


Well stated!


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## hammerheart14

chrisn said:


> The HO, NEVER buys the paint I am going to use:no:


When i paint as well, I NEVER let the homeowner buy the paint. I only use the best. But since I also am a paint sales man, I can understand when a HO comes into the paint store, upset because the painter is using crappy box store paint or low quality paint. SO in THAT situation, I can understand the HO wanting to buy Ben Moore from a paint store and having his painter use it. But basically, a HO needs to cover this BEFORE the job is started and ask the painter WHAT kind of paint he is using, and research it BEFORE he hires him.


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## pucks101

I thought this thread was dead... Unfortunately its' not, and I'm still getting quoted on it (and usually misinterpreted), so I feel like I need to clarify my points.
Most of my experience is doing remodeling, which included painting, Currently, I'm only doing small jobs, some of which are only painting. So I am not an advanced DIY'er. 
I tried Behr on my own house about 5 years to test it out and to learn about it. I had some gallons/colors go up great. I had some give me a lot of trouble trying to get coverage. I was able to make it all look good in the end, but most of the paint faded away and thinned out over the past 5 years.
CONCLUSION: It's a cheap paint and is very inconsistent. If a house-flipper or DIY'er uses Behr, and likes it, I see no reason to try to convince them to use something else. If it works for them, great, I just don't hate Behr enough to get involved; this by no stretch of the imagination means that I encourage people to use it. I most definitely do not recommend to any painting contractors using Ben Moore, SW, etc., to change over to Behr. I use Ben Moore as my regular brand. I have had HO provide me with paint. I don't do this as a rule. I prefer to buy the paint myself. But I have had people call me who have started painting and realized they suck at it, they hate it, or they just don't have tim to finish it, and I don't automatically turn them down for providing the paint, I just tell them I cannot guarantee their products. This usually involves Behr and SW. I think Behr is definitely a step down in quality, consistency, and price, but i ca put it p if need be. The stuff from SW I find to be very good, but each of their versions performs a little differently than the similar level product from Ben Moore. So I'm not concerned about putting up SW like I am with Behr, but it is still different, and is not my regular stuff, so I still don't guarantee the product

Hopefully this clarifies my opinion so I can stop being quoted and/or misinterpreted. I am not pro-Behr, but I am also not anti-Behr like some others; I don't like it, but I don't necessarily "dislike" it. In fact, the one thing I learned by trying it on my house was that I won't be buying any more of it...


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## Endeavour32

ccarlisle said:


> From a chemical ingredients standpoint, the answer is an immediate and unqualified "yes"...just like anything else, there are cheap ingredients and there are expensive ingredients and the main reason why you use one or the other (apart from financial constraints) is quality of the finished product i.e the paint film - and therefore the lower the cost.
> 
> Research by the manufacturers of the ingredients (ie. people like Dow, BASF, Tioxide, R&H etc) aims at obtaining a "better" product i.e one that performs better, quicker or cheaper to give a specified performance. It is easy to make a $100/gallon (cost) paint given unlimited ressources, the challenge becomes how to make a paint that matches that performance at a suitable price for a given market...
> 
> It is also relatively easy - although more of a technical challenge - to make a cheap paint, using the minimum ingredients and technical ressources in manufacturing, but it is done and I qualify those paints as $8/gallon paints (for my own reasons). These budget paints have a place in the market, but come with their own set of limitations and lowering of quality.
> 
> Now what the consumer also sees is the cost of marketing. Home Depot can purchase a can of $8/gall paint and resell it for $32 in order to make a profit point for the whole store. B-M make a paint for $22/gall marks it up to pay for their stores and sells is at $44. Which is the better buy?
> 
> Most consumers think they can save by buying the $32/gall paint from H-D because they think they have "saved" $12/gall. They go off happy and apply a paint that they have to redo in half the time it would have taken the better paint to last - _at comparable _specifications. That's where the fly gets in the ointment.
> 
> What is "comparable specifications" to the average consumer? 'Looks "good"'? 'Goes on with a roller'? 'Matches the colour I want'? 'Saves me money'? 'Bought from one store'? Cleans up with water'? No VOCs?...
> 
> These are all valid reasons why the average paint consumer buys a paint; note that thickness of paint film (= longer wear life) or "rheology of paint" (= ease of application) are NOT criteria they would use (that's not their fault) but that these criteria affect *the cost* of a layer of paint.
> 
> It's the classic mismatch. There's nothing wrong with $8/gall paint, but what some of us put forward is that $8/gall paint COSTS more, even though it is cheaper in price. But since people can't see into the future and will never know how much their paint film actually costs, they ignore the very things research aims at.
> 
> But research does tell us that the more expensive the paint (not by consumers criteria), the better the film, and the lower the cost.


I'm sorry to say CCarlisle but someone has drank the cool-aid and Sherwin and Benjamin. Home Depot does not take an 8 dollar can of paint and sell it for $22.00 and Benjamin does not take a $22 dollar can of paint and sell it for $44. Home Depot on average makes about 25% on a can of paint, while Benjamin and Sherwin average 60% per gallon. So lets do some math.

A $19 gallon of Glidden 220 is going to cost Home Depot around $15.00. A $31 gallon of Sherwin Williams Pro Mar 200 will cost around the same amount and the same goes for a gallon of Benjamin Moore Super Spec which is going to be the same price as well. The difference is the Home Depot doesn't rip off the average joe walking through the door. Where as Sherwin and Benjamin do. The max discount at Sherwin is around 60% off, this is for major contractors. I can tell you this, they are not losing money at this rate. Also how often do you see the 40% off sign up at Sherwin? When was the last time you saw 40% off at Lowes, Home Depot or Menards?

I have compared many paints to Sherwin and Benjamin and while your sales pitch may sound good for these companies, it's simply that a sales pitch. I've heard the sales people at Sherwin claim their paint causes less dust, scrubs better, and all sorts of other nutty stuff you can't prove. It's all b.s.. Now I'm not saying that Sherwin is a bad paint because that would not be true, but it's not miles better either and in some cases it not as good. 

I'm going to use Glidden as the example as a big box brand as I know their paint it great and I've compared it to Sherwin on more that one occasion. Glidden is owned by PPG which also owns Pittsburg Paint, Porter, Devoe, Olympic, Sikkens and many other brands. PPG dwarfs Sherwin Williams in R&D research. Go look at Sherwins income statement and see what they spent the last 3 years on R&D the number is so small its not even reported! PPG on the other hand spent $488 million last year. So all of this talk of Sherwin spending more on R&D is pure bull. PPG has a gross profit margin of 42% while Sherwin has a gross profit margin of 55%. These numbers show what each make on a can of paint excluding all other operating costs. Also with Sherwin you need to remember that most of their paint is sold to contractors so they are not paying the ridiculous list prices that sherwin puts on their paint more like 40% less which Sherwin is still making a hearty mark up. So who is marking up their paint more? 

Now I am no Behr fan so I'm going to agree their paint stinks, but Valspar and Glidden are both box store brands and are both great paints.


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## Endeavour32

sorry for the above typo's. I tried to edit the above post, but there is no way to edit it once posted.


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## kwikfishron

Endeavour32 said:


> sorry for the above typo's. I tried to edit the above post, but there is no way to edit it once posted.


You have 30 minutes to edit....This thread is over 2 years old btw.


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## chrisn

Endeavour32 said:


> I'm sorry to say CCarlisle but someone has drank the cool-aid and Sherwin and Benjamin. Home Depot does not take an 8 dollar can of paint and sell it for $22.00 and Benjamin does not take a $22 dollar can of paint and sell it for $44. Home Depot on average makes about 25% on a can of paint, while Benjamin and Sherwin average 60% per gallon. So lets do some math.
> 
> A $19 gallon of Glidden 220 is going to cost Home Depot around $15.00. A $31 gallon of Sherwin Williams Pro Mar 200 will cost around the same amount and the same goes for a gallon of Benjamin Moore Super Spec which is going to be the same price as well. The difference is the Home Depot doesn't rip off the average joe walking through the door. Where as Sherwin and Benjamin do. The max discount at Sherwin is around 60% off, this is for major contractors. I can tell you this, they are not losing money at this rate. Also how often do you see the 40% off sign up at Sherwin? When was the last time you saw 40% off at Lowes, Home Depot or Menards?
> 
> I have compared many paints to Sherwin and Benjamin and while your sales pitch may sound good for these companies, it's simply that a sales pitch. I've heard the sales people at Sherwin claim their paint causes less dust, scrubs better, and all sorts of other nutty stuff you can't prove. It's all b.s.. Now I'm not saying that Sherwin is a bad paint because that would not be true, but it's not miles better either and in some cases it not as good.
> 
> I'm going to use Glidden as the example as a big box brand as I know their paint it great and I've compared it to Sherwin on more that one occasion. Glidden is owned by PPG which also owns Pittsburg Paint, Porter, Devoe, Olympic, Sikkens and many other brands. PPG dwarfs Sherwin Williams in R&D research. Go look at Sherwins income statement and see what they spent the last 3 years on R&D the number is so small its not even reported! PPG on the other hand spent $488 million last year. So all of this talk of Sherwin spending more on R&D is pure bull. PPG has a gross profit margin of 42% while Sherwin has a gross profit margin of 55%. These numbers show what each make on a can of paint excluding all other operating costs. Also with Sherwin you need to remember that most of their paint is sold to contractors so they are not paying the ridiculous list prices that sherwin puts on their paint more like 40% less which Sherwin is still making a hearty mark up. So who is marking up their paint more?
> 
> Now I am no Behr fan so I'm going to agree their paint stinks, but Valspar and Glidden are both box store brands and are both great paints.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## akronpainters

Even though the thread is really old. I'm new to the chat room so I want to contribute however possible. My two cents is for my painting company my go to will always be Valspar!


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## Gymschu

Welcome aboard Akronpainters. I'm just a wee bit south of you in the Dover-New Phila. area.


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## chrisn

akronpainters said:


> Even though the thread is really old. I'm new to the chat room so I want to contribute however possible. My two cents is for my painting company my go to will always be Valspar![/QUOTE]
> 
> Seriously or are you being factious?


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## getrex

Why Valspar?


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