# My Friend's Diamond Vogel Paint Problems



## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

A family friend - a young single lady - painted the exterior of her house this past September. Decided to do it right, so she went to the local SW Store. She did everything exactly the way they recommended - from thorough scraping & wire-brushing, to their recommended oil-base primer, to their recommended paint. Again, she did absolutely everything they recommended. The house siding is in good condition, and she painted in September, during an extended dry period of weather.

The problem is that before she was even finished painting, massive blisters formed - and not just a few. She assumed that, since she was doing everything right, the paint would dry right and be okay. Obviously it wasn't okay.

So after bugging the SW Store manger for 6 weeks, she finally got him to come out & take a look. He gave her some flippant song & dance, and absolutely refused to do _anything_ to help make it right. 

She is beside herself.


So... What the heck might have happened here? My first thought was surface prep, but she had scraped thoroughly, and everything was dry. I wondered if she painted too soon after it was primed, but she waited a week - which was more than they recommended.

Also, what is her next step? Since they're just blowing her off, should she contact a lawyer? Should she tell the store manager that she's going to seek legal advice?


Again, I'm not joking or taking pot-shots at SW Paint (even though this is the same store who acted like complete a-holes to me several years ago). On behalf of my friend, I'm asking for your advice.

Thanks!


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Dr. Hicks, I have had this happen to me. What I determined ON MY OWN was that the homeowners had used a very cheap paint about 5 years before I came on the scene. I did professional prep work.......washed down the wood siding by hand, scraped, sanded, spot primed, 2 coats, the whole nine yards......anyway, I, too found bubbles particularly on one side of the house. The SW rep came out and said moisture was trapped under the new coat of paint, yeah, I know. So after talking to the homeowners, I found out about the cheap paint. What I felt happened was similar to how you remove wallpaper. The new coat of paint by laying on the surface of the old/cheap paint caused the poorly bonded paint to begin to bubble up kinda like wallpaper does when water is applied. Of course SW was not going to do anything to help me remedy the situation. I basically had to rescrape the bubbles off & give it another go. When I painted again, I still got some bubbles, but, again scraped them off and repainted til finally I got a decent result. In your friend's case, I would have her insist on having a District Rep come out & REALLY GIVE IT A SOLID LOOK-SEE, not just a 5 minute blow off. He should have a moisture meter, etc. to test the paint film to see what's going on. She could threaten to get a lawyer, but, rarely do they rule in favor of the homeowner because there's so many loopholes that protect the paint mfr. from liability.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks, Gymschu. 

I have no idea what kind of paint had been previous applied to the house. She has only owned it for about 4 years.

Oddly though, some of this blistering happened over siding that had been scraped completely bare. It looks like the primer simply didn't soak in & adhere.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

Hiya Doc,

Blistering, and ultimately peeling, are usually among the easier problems to solve when dealing with paint issues - but more info is needed. (1) I assume the finish paint was latex (acrylic)? (2) When the blisters formed, were they filled with water? ...had the blisters formed within hours - or days - after application? (3) Has the paint actually peeled now? ...or did the blisters ultimately relax and adhere to the surface? (4) If the finish peeled, did it peel to the primer? ...or did the primer come off also? ...and if the primer came off, did it come off to the bare substrate? ...or down to another coat of paint? ...and if it came down to the substrate, is it wood siding? (5) Not that it's necessarily the wrong recommendation, but why was an oil base recommended as a primer? (6) Why was your friend repainting her house? ...had it peeled before?

There are several reasons why paint will blister and peel...and with the answer to those questions, chances are I'd be more able to give you the probable cause of paint failure, and a better recommendation to repair and repaint successfully. Unfortunately, it is very, very - extremely - rare that it's the fault of the paint (that's not to defend Sherwin Williams)...Peeling is almost always the result of improper, or *incomplete,* surface preparation (and that's not to blame your friend). 

In the scenario you've described, your friend, a painting novice, goes into a paint store, describes her home and asks for the recommended procedure to paint it. She buys their paint and tools, then follows surface prep and application instructions to a "T" - yet the paint blisters almost immediately (actually at that point, she should've quit painting and contacted SW immediately)...

Now, if all that is complete and true, then (and here's where I tend to climb up on my soap-box) perhaps the paint store employee did *not* do a proper job of making the best recommendation to your friend. Apparently this employee did not do an adequate job of determining her particular needs by asking the proper questions before making a general - overall - blanket-type, cover-most-of-the-bases type of surface prep, prime and finish recommendation...(that may have been a run-on sentence, but I'm on a roll here). Your friend went to a paint store because she needed advice and expertise. If all she needed was paint, she could've easily gone to one of the big boxes, mass merchandisers, discount house, etc...In this competitive environment, the only reason paint stores exist is because they offer the expertise that big boxes (and others) can not. If this employee didn't share with her the experience and advice she needed, then a great dis-service was done to both your friend and Sherwin Williams...that is *NOT *what they expect from their employees. 

(whew) ....sorry, I got a little off-track there. Give some more info and we'll be able to better able to help your friend.


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## jsheridan (Jan 30, 2011)

ric knows paint said:


> Hiya Doc,
> 
> Now, if all that is complete and true, then (and here's where I tend to climb up on my soap-box) perhaps the paint store employee did *not* do a proper job of making the best recommendation to your friend. Apparently this employee did not do an adequate job of determining her particular needs by asking the proper questions before making a general - overall - blanket-type, cover-most-of-the-bases type of surface prep, prime and finish recommendation...(that may have been a run-on sentence, but I'm on a roll here). Your friend went to a paint store because she needed advice and expertise. If all she needed was paint, she could've easily gone to one of the big boxes, mass merchandisers, discount house, etc...In this competitive environment, the only reason paint stores exist is because they offer the expertise that big boxes (and others) can not. If this employee didn't share with her the experience and advice she needed, then a great dis-service was done to both your friend and Sherwin Williams...that is *NOT *what they expect from their employees.
> 
> (whew) ....sorry, I got a little off-track there. Give some more info and we'll be able to better able to help your friend.


Excuse me Ric, but I think you must be thinking about another paint company. Seems to me SW lately is hiring clerks moreso than experienced staff. I went in one on a Sunday, there was a high school kid there whose job was to open and close the door, and ring a few sales between. Even if they have experience, many people these days aren't very helpful, especially to newbies. Or, the store is so shorthanded that they haven't the time to spend to really help an inexperienced customer get the proper product and advice they need. It's a wider problem than just SW though. The paint cos, imo, have never done enough to educate the pro, the homeowner, or their staff, and they're doing less nowadays. I have a few trusted contacts in the stores, but I find in general, it's hard to get answers to many of my questions, even about their own products. The internet has helped this issue a great deal, and the paint cos have done quite a bit of educational effort online, though not everybody is online, but it's impersonal, and doesn't lend to back and forth questioning like a store contact would/could. That's why I think that what we do here is invaluable, and the need for it will become greater over time. 

Dr Hicks, I'll add some questions to Ric's list. As a percent, how much of the house is failing? Is it all sides or just one/two? Can you recognize a pattern? I'm thinking the house has no vapor barrier, and the oil, which breathes less, is blocking the vapor transfer.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

Thanks for the excellent responses guys! I'm going to have to head over to her house and do some more investigating.


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

I can't really disagree with you, JS, but I don't think that's always been true of SW. I seem to remember when they were the virtual training ground for everybody who ultimately ended up in this god-forsaken business. 

Seems like now, so many young people in the industry are trained only in "buzz word technology" - which means that during a sales presentation, or a problem solving interview, these individuals assume the role of "expert" by throwing out enough scientific sounding, albeit uber-confusing, industry buzz words that the primary problem-at-hand is either forgotten, or so muddled that a logical recommendation or solution could no longer be understood by the person in need (or the "expert" spewing this crap either). Too often times, unfortunately, this type of shallow presentation results in problems that could've been so easily avoided if only the proper questions would've been asked at the time of original sale.


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## 95025 (Nov 14, 2010)

*It was DIAMOND VOGEL PAINT*

First, I must apologize. * It was NOT Sherwin Williams Paint* - that was what she used on the foundation. It was Diamond Vogel. *Perhaps one of the Mods could change the title of this thread?
 
* Here is her email to me from this morning...

"It was actually Diamond Vogel that I bought my paint from that did the bubbling. I used Sherwin Williams on the foundation and trim and porch had no problems at all, but I used Diamond Vogel's "Permacryl" paint on the wood siding and it was bubbling everywhere. I did everything by the book as far as prepping exactly how they recommended at the paint stores. I used an oil based primer to spot prime after scraping and sanding for 3 weeks. I waited 2 days and then painted the house, and some areas started bubbling within minutes of drying--specifically the south side. Other areas took a little longer and i didn't notice it until a day or so later (the east side and parts of the north). But it was EVERYWHERE. A lot of that has gone down, but it still looks pretty bad in areas, and the inspector that they send out said I'd just have to start over and re-sand/scrape and paint again. Which probably means it'll just bubble again....the inspector's solution was to side my house. I went to the Diamond Vogel on XXXX XXXXX. "


Shoot away. Again, thanks!


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## ric knows paint (Oct 26, 2011)

OK, I'm gonna make several assumptions here - You mentioned that it blistered everywhere, but much of it laid back down and, I assume, finally adhered to the surface. If that's the case, you're probably OK on those areas that have finally adhered - a cross-hatch adhesion test would help to determine that... If these statements are true, what you've described is "heat blistering" and is not uncommon with acrylic house paints - especially when applied in hot temps or direct sunlight. What happens is the surface of a newly applied coating "skins" over before all evaporative solvent has had a chance to flash off - those solvents (mostly water and glycol, but sometimes petro solvents also) becomes trapped beneath the "skin" and becomes a small to large balloon filled with solvent. The large blisters often times cannot support the weight of the trapped water and burst open (usually at night when the temps change) - the smaller blisters is often times perfectly capable of containing the solvent (mostly water) within the balloon until it can harmlessly pass through the film as a vapor. The reason these blisters may lay back down and adhere to the surface is the water/vapors have retarded coalescence of the underneath side of these blisters and that portion of the coating is then still considered viable. You/she may have noticed this phenomena occurring mostly over the freshly applied primer, but maybe not...

You also mentioned that she had scraped, sanded and spot-primed (with an oil) spots on her home prior to painting. Again, I'm assuming paint has peeled before and, most likely, down to a bare wood substrate. There are few things that can cause paint to peel to bare wood - Water is, by far, the most common cause. If moisture is a problem, acrylic is definitely the better finish to use because of the film's microporosity. An acrylic film is considered a "breathable" finish as it allows moisture, in the form of vapor, to pass through the film without causing blistering and peeling. Typically, most of an occupied home's moisture is going to pass through doors, windows, etc...but still a fair amount of moisture will work it's way through the walls and to the exterior siding. If it makes its way through the walls then can't escape through the exterior siding, it will cause the exterior paint to peel. If the exterior is only peeling in spots, and those spots change each time the house is repainted, it's a pretty good indication the exterior paint no longer has the microporosity necessary to allow for harmless vapor transmission....that is usually caused by a single, to multiple coats of oil (finish, not necessarily primer) or by too many applications of even an acrylic finish (with each additional coat of paint, over time, the level of microporosity diminishes).

A vapor barrier may help, but you gotta be careful with those. There will still be moisture within the house, and it's got to escape somehow or you could create problems in other areas. Perhaps a better, simpler and less expensive plan would be to re-route the moisture's path of escape. If there are pattern areas where peeling seems to be more prevalent (often the home's southern exposure), you might want to install a few ventilating louvres to create a new path of least resistance. If this is a lap sided house, take a look at the points where the boards actually lap. If there are enough coats of paint to create a solid, continual film between the boards, break the film with a putty knife creating another path of escape. Installing siding wedges will also help.

Again, I'm making several assumptions here but from what you've described, I don't think we're that far off the mark. Whatever you do, don't do the same thing you did last time. This is not a paint problem, it's a surface/moisture problem...take care of those issues (as described above) and the paint will then be able to better protect your surface as it's supposed to. Good luck.


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## Gymschu (Dec 12, 2010)

Ric knows paint, I'm sure glad you are on this website.......that was an outstanding explanation of a rather complex situation. Thanks for making it understandable. I must admit, I have never heard of the Diamond Vogel paint brand. A lot of times you can do a google search to get some reviews to see if similar problems occurred for other homeowners using this paint.


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