# framing material estimate



## maydoug (Dec 13, 2007)

I am doing a 250 sf addition on my house in the bay area. I am trying to estimate the cost of the framing, specifically, the material. I am familiar with residential construction and I will be handling some of the interior carpentry. I also know when to let the pro's handle the job, so I am staying out of the framing.

The addition is a basic square bedroom with a bathroom, standard 8' ceiling, attic and average pitch roof. Also have a 3' pony wall between floor level and foundation. 

I have two bids from quality contractors. 1st contractor bid labor and material. The 2nd contractor is trying to save me $$ and has estimated labor only. I know and trust contractor 2, otherwise i wouldn't agree to open labor estimate.

Can anyone estimate the cost of framing material by the sf? 

The difference between contractor 1's total bid, and contractor 2's labor only estimate is approx. $19,000. (for a 250 sf addition). I know lumber yards will do a takeoff but I dont want to ask them to do all the work if I am not going to buy material from them. Is there an average cost/sf that I can use for framing? Any help is greatly appreciated


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Try getting a few more bids if you are unsure of the price quote....
*Please find framers that will/do include the materials*. Why?

A.) So you do not have to ''disect'' and account for every nail and square inch of lumber used. Example: approximately 20% of all delivered lumber (framing and finish) is unfit for custom installation. Do you want to be out there with a tape measure and magnifying glass checking it? Calling the supplier? Culling thru and checking every peice of lumber delivered? .... unltimately, also, turning into a jerk to the contractor by nit-picking and questionsing every fraction of an inch of waste-cut-off, etc...?????

Trust me, you should stay out of the framing and materials used, "picture". You said it yourself, you know when to let the pro's take over....

B.) Generally (99.9% of the time), contractors that quote jobs based on labor only, do it for a reason (_they don't have the credit, can't get the credit, can't get an account, don't have the money, can't budget the money, don't have a good enough reputation to, etc, etc .._.) - To be able to purchase the material and include it with the job quote.
(Seriously, that is what we see in the industry, and those are generally the reasons why materials will not be included on a bid....).
If you want to do business, or want to conduct business like ''them'', then you will only attract - ''similar types''....


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## Cole (Mar 12, 2005)

maydoug said:


> The 2nd contractor is trying to save me $$ and has estimated labor only. I know and trust contractor 2, otherwise i wouldn't agree to open labor estimate.


How is just bidding labor, saving you money?

He should be able to get the lumber from a solid reputable company and should get it for a better price then you can. Once again, how is that saving you money? To me, it is him being lazy not wanting to take the time to do a material estimate not sure if he will get the job.


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Cole's right and I don't understand your motive here. If you're staying out of the framing stage why are you chasing prices for framing materials.
If you think Builder #1 is ripping you on materials, the answer is simple, get a second all up price quote. :wink: 

Your second mistake is trusting Builder #2. Builder #1 has quoted you an all-up price, if his quote is firm and he uses more framing timber than he allowed for then usually that's on him and most respected builders will wear it UNLESS it's beyond their scope of work. Builder #2 has the luxury of ordering any framing material he think he wants and you're going to pay for it. He could put a small home addition in his own house with that arrangement.

Last, a square foot price for framing, I can do. Send me a floor plan showing all detail, allow an hour for understanding what you're going to do, two hours taking off the measurements and materials from all walls, corners, windows, doors, special features, load bearing and bunch of other questions the plan will answer, Give me an hour to run the specifications through my $2500 estimator, print the schedule and re-check the list by hand. Finally, send me a check for $425.00 to cover my time and computer time, made payable to Home Building Solutions, and I'll give you the price per square foot.
Or, let your #1 builder work all of this out for you inside his quote, pay his price and let him GET ON WITH IT :furious:


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## Cole (Mar 12, 2005)

Maybe we were too rough? :laughing:


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Cole said:


> Maybe we were too rough? :laughing:


I guess we may actually be.... "welcoming" him to the "real world"? 

....:wink:

(This business ..... "_ain't no square dance_")


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

No disrespect was intended maydoug but look at it from our side. You've already been quoted, if you don't trust the guys that quoted you then it's simple, get other quotes. We don't have near enough information from you to prove figures, for example, 8' ceilings suggest trusses, we don't know the span to calculate cost, only the square footage. We don't know windows, doors and a heap of other things. We don't know if you're using any 6" frame or if it's all going to be 4".

Last and what steamed me the most, you have access to some very qualified contractors on this forum and yet in your thread, you're telling us that you're more than happy for us to spend an hour or two of our time, if we had the details, calculating costs and materials knowing we won't be doing the work for you, and yet you won't bother your local lumber yard to do a take-off from a plan sitting in front of them because you "may or may not" buy the materials from them.
After 20 plus years in this business I feel so worthless... ) (head hung in shame)


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## steve1234 (Sep 13, 2007)

maydoug-

I guess you hit a nerve with some folks on this board.....

I'm doing a remodel (CA bay area also) and we hired a framer. We had (3) quotes and the range was so wide it's like they weren't looking at the same plans. We ended up going with a smaller crew that we had past experience with and came recommended from others. 

He didn't care who bought the material. We talked and came up with a list of suppliers that would work. Our contract was labor only for a set period of time. He came over for an hour during the demo phase to see what was "behind the walls" and together we walked through a material list. We walked through specifics rather than estimating per square foot (studs per wall + plates+ joists + beams). Pretty straight forward. Lots of sharpie writing on the walls. He left, I made a list, he checked it, and shopped it at (3) suppliers. 

The house was a mess once we got into the project and we had to go back for more unforseen material, which I expected due to the nature of the project. I had the crew for a set time (another project scheduled behind ours) so I wanted they guys working and not chasing material. I tried to stay (2) steps ahead of them on material so it was there when they needed it. 

Cost is a huge issue on our project and the framing is one of the few things we hired. I'm doing the rest of it. I know he had the accounts/means to get the material, I would just rather pay for them to frame, not shop. As for funding their house add-on, shouldn't be an issue if you know/trust them and stay close to the project. 

How did it work in the end? I think my framer thought it was better since he never worried about material. He would write a list on one of the few remaining walls, we would sync up, and I would get it. I don't know if he thought I knew what I was doing so no issue, or he figured whatever, not my problem if there is a material issue. In the end I was happy and I would say he was too. When time expired (4-weeks), they had finished approx 80-85% of the work. In the first week both myself and the framer figured out they wouldn't finish once we realized what we were dealing with. Had it been an open labor quote, it would have come out more than estimated. Near the end, I would prioritize for them what I wanted done, so I could do what was left. 

By the way, the total framing material bill came out around 50-60% of the material quote from the other 2 quotes we had.


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

so steve1234, add the material list to the labor cost and how much did you save over the other quotes, lowest to highest ?


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> so steve1234, add the material list to the labor cost and how much did you save over the other quotes, lowest to highest ?


And also figure out the time you spent overseeing that phase, listing & picking up materials, consulation, planning, phone calls, etc, etc....and multiply those hours at what an hourly rate would be in your area + insurance, gas, mark up, etc... Add it to the lowest price....


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Ya stole my thunder AtlanticWBConst.....
As a contractor, I charge my materials retail, then add 10% to those materials, that covers pick-up, gas, all the things mentioned. If I buy where I can get a contractor discount then great, my gain.
I then add my labor and O&P, exactly as your contractor should have done. So when it boils down, you paid retail for your materials, you paid the labor with the contractor's O&P AND you paid for an extra person (you), gas, administration and all the other things usually completed by the contractor. 
No matter what you say, your time ain't free. So I just gotta ask, where's the saving ??
Good contractors charge fair prices. No matter what you "feel" you saved, you didn't. The contractor still charged what he was going to charge whether he chased materials or didn't. You saved him a job, not yourself money.
I detest micro-management and if I know that is going to happen between the HO and myself, I turn the job down. As a contractor that usually ends up costing me "boucoup" money and is not worth the effort or the heartache. Once the HO becomes openly involved in the construction then it's a micro-management nightmare. The delays creep in because the Ho disagrees with the contractor on something, the HO blames the contractor for delays when in 80% of cases, if the HO had stayed away then things would have progressed much smoother.


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## Sarika (Dec 18, 2007)

Spammer


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> We don't have near enough information from you to prove figures, for example, 8' ceilings suggest trusses,


Since when does 8' ceilings suggest trusses?


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## steve1234 (Sep 13, 2007)

Material cost from 2 bids was 7.5 k and 6k. At the end of the day I spent under 4k for material....straight material. My time is not free???....really? Well, that changes my calculations..... 

I guess we are all guilty of stereotyping. Contractors try to rip you off where ever they can, they don't show up when they say, they do crappy work, disappear from the job site for days on end, try to change order you to death, they know way more than the h.o can ever dream to know, and if there is a problem discovered after the last check cleared....forget about it, not their problem. 

Now, me (homeowner) I must fall into this category: ....what a piece of work: Home Depot shopping, micro manager, want's everything for nothin' no good dumb a**. Contractors are put on the earth to break down bids for them. Guys got a hammer (big curved claw with a built in bottle opener....father's day present) and screwdriver (makita 9v....no less) and thinks he knows more and can do more than the "contractor". Clearly any question is micro managing because he's just a dumba**. They should just shut up, not question it, and pay the fair price. He knows exactly how long something should take, and if he changes his mind....what's the problem? It's just a small change that shouldn't cost anymore time or $$$$. Contractors should be so lucky to only have to work for other contractors because working for homeowners just isn't worth it. 

I find these types of discussions humerous. But for some strange reason I feel a need to clarify a bit:

You contractors that have a handle on your cost accounting....good for you. I believe you are ahead of 80% of the "contractors" out there, and you are the ones that are able to make a real living out there. 

I know my time is not "free". There is an opportunity cost. I have a day job that does not get interupted since that is my source of cash flow. My "free" time is spent on my house project. Now, I have a finite ammount of cash, and an "unlimited" ammount of time that does not affect my cash flow. I knew this going into it. I wanted more house than the available cash could buy turnkey. So when it comes to stuff like chasing material for a framer. I would rather "spend" my time than "spend" my cash.....I know they're both "spending". You contractors aren't the only ones that understand the true cost. 

I know this doesn't work for all contractors. The guy we hired gave us some options. He said he could bid the whole job, but it would be higher to cover him against the unknown. I get it, and he would be an idiot if he didn't do that. He said his labor cost is $1000/day. Which I took as a given. I did not try to convince him his labor cost was too high.....he did his cost accounting. Based on what he could see, he guessed a month (4 weeks). Turns out he had something scheduled following the 4 week slot. Knowing cash was an issue and my skills, he suggested a flat 4-week labor contract. At the end of 4 weeks, they were gone. Worked for me. They knew I was capable of getting material so they didn't care. I'm buying a finite chuck of their time and I wanted them doing what they do, not what I could do (material). What did they get?? Their fair labor cost for the exact time they had open on their schedule, no hassles, several lunches, and many beers. 

At the end of the 4-weeks, they were not done. Again, that was fine. Many unknowns came up that took more time. I saw them, they saw them, no problem, you can't forsee everthing. Very rational discussion and not a classic H.O. vs Contractor argument. Rather than spending cash I don't have I spent my time finishing the framing. At the end of the day the whole crew offered to come back whenever we needed additional help, and I would recommend them to anybody, so I would say it worked out ok.

I guess I'm saying I know time has a "cost", not all jobs are the same, not all contractors are looking for the same type of job all the time, all contractors don't suck, and all homeowners aren't nightmares to work for.......

I think I spent too much time on this...:huh:


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> Since when does 8' ceilings suggest trusses?


Uhmmmmm....since the starting height for a standard wall is usually eight, nine or ten feet and the only place a standard wall has to go is up, then if a person tells me they have an eight foot ceiling and they will have a standard pitch roof then it "suggests" that he is using trusses or whatever you might like to call them. Unless you build things a little differently in your part of the woods...
If he said pitched ceiling then I'd probably suggest he's going to use rafters...
"Suggest" is the operative word.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> Uhmmmmm....since the starting height for a standard wall is usually eight, nine or ten feet and the only place a standard wall has to go is up, then if a person tells me they have an eight foot ceiling and they will have a standard pitch roof then it "suggests" that he is using trusses or whatever you might like to call them. Unless you build things a little differently in your part of the woods...
> If he said pitched ceiling then I'd probably suggest he's going to use rafters...
> "Suggest" is the operative word.


Ummmmmmm, you keep saying trusses is what is suggested. I'm asking WHY are you saying trusses???? It can be stick framed with ceiling joists and rafters (hand cutting the rafters) Trusses are something you order from a truss company or lumberyard and the truss consists of the rafters and ceiling joists all in one. Trusses and stick framing is two different things. 

My part of the woods use trusses and stick frame. Do you just use trusses and never stick frame with flat ceilings?


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

steve1234 said:


> I guess I'm saying I know time has a "cost", not all jobs are the same, not all contractors are looking for the same type of job all the time, all contractors don't suck, and all homeowners aren't nightmares to work for.......
> 
> I think I spent too much time on this...:huh:


Agree and agree....:yes: ...maybe I will just put the current job and the current HO in the "don't make the same mistake again" bin...:whistling2:


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> Ummmmmmm, you keep saying trusses is what is suggested. I'm asking WHY are you saying trusses???? It can be stick framed with ceiling joists and rafters (hand cutting the rafters) Trusses are something you order from a truss company or lumberyard and the truss consists of the rafters and ceiling joists all in one. Trusses and stick framing is two different things. My part of the woods use trusses and stick frame. Do you just use trusses and never stick frame with flat ceilings?


mmmmm.....try this"a truss is a static structure consisting of straight slender members inter-connected at joints into triangular units. " OR "An engineered building component supporting the roof in place of rafters. Roof trusses are usually constructed in a triangular shape with a number of interconnected pieces that spread a load evenly across the truss."

In some cases, mostly in canopy situations, I build my own trusses. Otherwise you are right, I order them through the normal channels. It's not called a truss simply because you "buy" it, no matter how primitive it may look in the end, if you take one ceiling joist and create a pitch by adding two "rafters" to it, add some bracing timber and space that item at the usual intervals then congrats, whether you like it or not you have built a ceiling truss....

Anything other than that is a raftered roof whether the rafter is flat across or includes a pitch.

I may be wrong but to me "stick framing" applies to the whole structure not just the roof. Maybe, as a Kiwi, I interpret differently, help somebody !!!....:wink:


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> mmmmm.....try this"a truss is a static structure consisting of straight slender members inter-connected at joints into triangular units. " OR "An engineered building component supporting the roof in place of rafters. Roof trusses are usually constructed in a triangular shape with a number of interconnected pieces that spread a load evenly across the truss."
> 
> In some cases, mostly in canopy situations, I build my own trusses. Otherwise you are right, I order them through the normal channels. It's not called a truss simply because you "buy" it, no matter how primitive it may look in the end, if you take one ceiling joist and create a pitch by adding two "rafters" to it, add some bracing timber and space that item at the usual intervals then congrats, whether you like it or not you have built a ceiling truss....
> 
> ...




What do you call picking up a 2x8 and nailing it to the top plate on edge from one wall to the next and then putting a 2x8 down on a set of horses and laying out a rafter with a framing square, calculator or whatever way you lay out a rafter. Now you cut the rafters and nail it on top of the top plate on both sides of a roof on each end and then take a 2x10 ridge and slide it between the rafters and nail the rest of the rafters up to the ridge?

I call it stick framing the roof. It's not called a truss around here.

What do you call it when you order a truss from the lumberyard and they have it delivered and then you lift the truss on top of the roof and nail it in?


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> What do you call picking up a 2x8 and nailing it to the top plate on edge from one wall to the next and then putting a 2x8 down on a set of horses and laying out a rafter with a framing square, calculator or whatever way you lay out a rafter. Now you cut the rafters and nail it on top of the top plate on both sides of a roof on each end and then take a 2x10 ridge and slide it between the rafters and nail the rest of the rafters up to the ridge?
> 
> I call it stick framing the roof. It's not called a truss around here.
> 
> What do you call it when you order a truss from the lumberyard and they have it delivered and then you lift the truss on top of the roof and nail it in?


Anybody.........pleeeeeeese........:wallbash: ...and again without flogging a dead horse....."stick framing" is a slang way of saying you're building a house of wood, not of brick and not of straw......this is a language "thang".....I've said that I'm stick framing a wall or stick framing a roof or house many times, doesn't mean a truss ain't a truss.....or a rafter ain't a rafter:yes:


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> Anybody.........pleeeeeeese........:wallbash: ...and again without flogging a dead horse....."stick framing" is a slang way of saying you're building a house of wood, not of brick and not of straw......this is a language "thang".....I've said that I'm stick framing a wall or stick framing a roof or house many times, doesn't mean a truss ain't a truss.....or a rafter ain't a rafter:yes:


And you keep saying that 8' ceilings suggest trusses which is not true at all for the readers out hear.............is that slang for a stick/hand framed roof also............sounds like it to me that you call a stick framed roof that has ceiling beams and rafters a truss.


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> And you keep saying that 8' ceilings suggest trusses which is not true at all for the readers out hear.............is that slang for a stick/hand framed roof also............sounds like it to me that you call a stick framed roof that has ceiling beams and rafters a truss.


(chuckle)......can I have some of whatever it is you're smokin'...pleeese....

The term stick framing has nothing to do with the type of roof whether rafter or truss......it's a term used defining either putting the roof together stick by stick or using engineered components. It can apply to the whole house, not just the roof. Stick framing a house means you're building it from the ground up, stick by stick, you have NOT built the majority of the home using prefabricated or structurally manufactured components.

You may use the stick framing method for building BUT you are in essence building either a raftered roof or a trussed roof. 

The minute you build the roof using a ceiling joist coupled with two rafters and in many cases a ridge to stabalize the centers, you have built a truss. When you use two rafters coupled with a ridge but no ceiling joist you have built a raftered roof. If you use the stick framing method to build it, in other words you assembled the construction stick by stick instead of bringing in structural components and simply putting them together means you used the stick framing method of building.

Yup pal, even in the USA........:yes:


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> (chuckle)......can I have some of whatever it is you're smokin'...pleeese....
> 
> The term stick framing has nothing to do with the type of roof whether rafter or truss......it's a term used defining either putting the roof together stick by stick or using engineered components. It can apply to the whole house, not just the roof. Stick framing a house means you're building it from the ground up, stick by stick, you have NOT built the majority of the home using prefabricated or structurally manufactured components.
> 
> ...


I say it slowly for you. I'm talking about from the top plate, not the whole house. You said that when someone says 8' ceilings, that suggests trusses. You are 100% wrong. Call it what you want, I could care less, but if anyone with half a brain reads your posts, they will think trusses. So, you can go back and smoke whatever it is that your smoking and knock yourself out on your next stick framed/truss roof. I forgot, once the ceiling beams, rafters and ridge are installed it's a truss.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

I haven't been closely following this "exchange", but, FWIW: 

Stick framing to me (and several other framing/builder buddies of mine) is anything that is not;

- "Pre-engineered and built", and delivered to the site.
- "Pre-built" and delivered to the site.
- "Pre-fabricated" and delivered to the site.


However, anything that is ''built'' on site, I equate/label/consider/speak of/classify as_......."stick framing"._

I am not trying to take sides. I will say in Joe's defense that he is a Framer by trade, and that is something to take into consideration in the discussion.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Bottom line is, this is all about perception and terminology. Remember that, in the trades, we all take on the speech, perception, thinking patterns, work ethics, work process, and sometimes even the attitude, of the ones that trained us. 
The point: Perceptions (opinions) can be different, based on how we learned, but they can also be something that is simply a minor difference of perception (opinions)....


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> I say it slowly for you. I'm talking about from the top plate, not the whole house. You said that when someone says 8' ceilings, that suggests trusses. You are 100% wrong. Call it what you want, I could care less, but if anyone with half a brain reads your posts, they will think trusses. So, you can go back and smoke whatever it is that your smoking and knock yourself out on your next stick framed/truss roof. I forgot, once the ceiling beams, rafters and ridge are installed it's a truss.


 
:wink: mmmmmmm........so we just wasted a page and a half of thread so you could tell me that what I was suggesting was a truss roof REALLY is a truss roof.....go figure. 
If maydoug tells me that he's building a standard 8' ceiling with an attic and pitched roof then he can't be building a raftered ceiling, it's impossible. He's building a trussed ceiling and he's stick framing it, in other words he's building the whole thing stick by stick on site.
I agree with AtlanticWBConst., much is in terminology. You can call it whatever you like, potayto, potarto......:laughing: ...it;s all the same.
I'm done.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> :wink:mmmmmmm........so we just wasted a page and a half of thread so you could tell me that what I was suggesting was a truss roof REALLY is a truss roof.....go figure.


My God! I wasn't agreeing with you at all. I'll add to what I said before:



> Originally Posted by *Joe Carola*
> _I forgot, once the ceiling beams, rafters and ridge are installed it's a truss* IN YOUR MIND*._


_

It's not a truss!
_



> If maydoug tells me that he's building a standard 8' ceiling with an attic and pitched roof then he can't be building a raftered ceiling, it's impossible.


Raftered ceiling a new word? Where did that come from? If a Home owner had a set of plans that called for 2x8 ceiling joist, 2x8 rafters and a 2x10 ridge and didn't know what he was looking at and asked me if the roof was going to be trusses, I would say no, it will be a stick framed roof where I cut and nail the ceiling and rafters on. A truss is something you order and comes in one piece. You would tell them that they're getting a truss or trussed ceiling, or it will be a truss when it's done. Brilliant!



> If maydoug tells me that he's building a standard 8' ceiling with an attic and pitched roof then he can't be building a raftered ceiling, it's impossible. He's building a trussed ceiling


Trussed ceiling??? Is that another name for a stick built roof also?

Ceiling beams, rafters and ridge for you so far are called, "Raftered Ceilings", "Trussed Ceilings" and "Trusses".WOW! I'm glad your done making up words here.


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## Mike13 (Dec 20, 2007)

Kiwi,

It's definitely a terminology thing. You are wrong in the traditional sense of the construction industry. You are correct in a very primitive definition of a "truss".

Trusses typically use 2X4 members versus typically 2X8/10 members for ceiling joist/rafter construction. In the construction industry, trusses are engineered building components designed for specific applications, loads, etc. Those designs are also stamped by a structural engineer.

Regarding your comment of "In some cases, mostly in canopy situations, I build my own trusses.". 

While it may look like a truss, in the traditional sense of the construction industry it is not a truss since it is not an "engineered" component (unless you are a structural professional engineer licensed in whatever location you are doing business). It would not pass code for usage in most localities.

Your choice of terminology does appear to be one of little experience in the framing business. Rafter ceiling??? Maybe you meant "cathedral" ceiling. Trussed ceiling-I've never heard it said like that but at least it makes a little more sense than rafter ceiling. Typically they are called roof trusses but you can attach the ceiling material to the bottom chords.


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## Mike13 (Dec 20, 2007)

And to the OP, since you are only asking for help on the "framing" material I assume you have the plans done & know what is required. It would take less than 1 hour to stop off @ Home Depot & pull the prices.

Let's see, the following probably will account for 80% of what you need...

X# feet of 2X4 PT sill plate - $__________
X# feet of 2X10 floor joists - $__________
X# feet of 2X10 rim boards - $_________
X# of 4'X8'X3/4" subfloor panels - $______
X# of 2X4X8' bottom & top plates - $_______
X# of 2X4X93" or 8' wall studs - $_______
X# feet of 2X8 or X10 ceiling joists - $______
X# feet of 2X8 rafters - $______
X# feet of ridge beam - $_________
X# of 4'X8'X7/16 OSB roof sheathing panels - $_____
Miscellaneous to include construction adhesive, nails, 
joists hangers, hurricane ties, etc. $__________
Add sales tax $_______
Add pickup/delivery charges $__________
Add 20% fudge factor $_________

Total framing materials $__________

Pretty easy, huh?

Or just use $35/sf X 250 sq ft = $8,750.


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Around these parts the construction industry uses the terms "truss" and "stick built" as Joe C. described them.


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Mike13 said:


> Kiwi,
> 
> It's definitely a terminology thing. You are wrong in the traditional sense of the construction industry. You are correct in a very primitive definition of a "truss".
> 
> ...


(chuckle)......after twenty years in New Zealand and Australia for Carter Holt Harvey as a project manager with 138 guys, and ten years in USA with 24 of my own crew, I've learned just enough to get me into trouble.

All of this started when I "suggested" the OP might be using trusses, note the word "suggested". Seems that word is not in Joe's language, he jumped on it, so I've had some fun at his expense. I do build my own trusses and have had no problem with code. However, ONLY on smaller construction, anything of size then I order them in. An engineer's code on a truss tells whoever that the truss meets size, fixture and moisture regulations. That doesn't mean that I cannot build my own, BUT, they also have to meet these regulations. My own engineer designed and stamped ours, but only on the plan, not on the truss. It passed with no problems.. From a cost point of view, I haven't got the equipment or time to pump out house lots of trusses so I don't. When I do build a truss, I build a truss.....:laughing: 

This crapola about stick framing etc was a waste of time and really has nothing to do with the construction. It's a term most builders use for any part of the house including the roof. Call it what you like, who really cares. Who really cares when I'm looking at installing a flat ceiling and I tell my crew chief that it's a flat roof or a trussed roof. He knows what I mean and either builds accordingly or orders trusses. What he does know is that he's looking at a flat ceiling, the plan and me tell him what he needs to do.
When I tell him it's a raftered ceiling, big freaking deal, he knows it not flat, it has no bottom joist, he knows what he's in for. In ten years, we haven't screwed it up yet.

I got up Joe's nose because of attitude, his. The raw definition of a truss has nothing to do licensed engineers, we use them cos it makes life easier in our job, that's why I have one on the team. The fact that any builder creates a triangle using a joist, rafters and braces means he's building a truss, no matter how primitive.

If I'm stick framing a house then I'm building it from the ground up in mostly wood, if I decide to use engineered trusses, big deal, it's still a stick framed house. A stick framed roof is just that and refers to both a flat ceiling and a cathedral ceiling, you're telling "nobody nothing"...except that you're building the whole thing yourself and it's NOT a structurally fabricated building, BTW, that's the US definition on the Internet.

I use engineered trusses wherever I can for flat ceilings and have my plans pointing that way. It saves me money by ordering them and frees the crew up for other phases of the job.

Again, terminology, who gives a rats, I'd call a roof a "tent" if I could get it build better, faster and cheaper. 

MAYDOUG, if you're still out there watching this rubbish, or should I say garbage.....:whistling2: ...can you suggest to us if you're using trusses or if your guy is going to "stick frame" the roof.....thanks. Don't really give a hoot but it would be interesting to know what was on your plans.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> (chuckle)......after twenty years in New Zealand and Australia for Carter Holt Harvey as a project manager with 138 guys, and ten years in USA with 24 of my own crew, I've learned just enough to get me into trouble.
> 
> All of this started when I "suggested" the OP might be using trusses, note the word "suggested". Seems that word is not in Joe's language, he jumped on it, so I've had some fun at his expense.


At my expense! Not only did you just bury yourself with that last post/joke, with all your so called experience, you still have no idea what your talking about. I thought you were done. Keep posting and embarrassing yourself. This is getting very entertaining. I don't know if I should feel sorry for you or just laugh at you.


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

Joe Carola said:


> At my expense! Not only did you just bury yourself with that last post/joke, with all your so called experience, you still have no idea what your talking about. I thought you were done. Keep posting and embarrassing yourself. This is getting very entertaining. I don't know if I should feel sorry for you or just laugh at you.


Whatever rings your bell Joe....:whistling2: ...hey, consider it my Xmas gift to you.

Mike posted, I answered and I agree with him and AtlanticWBConst. that it is a terminology "thang". Tried telling you that many posts ago when I wrote "then it "suggests" that he is using trusses or whatever you might like to call them". 

Still use words like "nogs", "dwangs", "lintels", "gib board" and a coupla dozen others as well, who cares, jobs get done, I get paid, crew understands me.


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> Whatever rings your bell Joe....:whistling2: ...hey, consider it my Xmas gift to you.
> 
> Mike posted, I answered and I agree with him and AtlanticWBConst. that it is a terminology "thang". Tried telling you that many posts ago when I wrote "then it "suggests" that he is using trusses or whatever you might like to call them".
> 
> Still use words like "nogs", "dwangs", "lintels", "gib board" and a coupla dozen others as well, who cares, jobs get done, I get paid, crew understands me.


You're still here! Christmas gift!!! Now I feel sorry for you. You already buried yourself just with the first and second post to me trying to explain how a stick framed roof is a truss when it's done. Your first post has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read before, especially from someone who is supposed to be a contractor.

One more thing, it's not just a terminology thing with you because no matter what way a roof gets framed whether it's stick framed or trussed you call it a truss anyway. I've never once in my life in over 20 years of framing ever heard someone call a stick framed roof a truss. If you sit there and literally build a truss the same exact way as you can order them with 2x4's or 2x6's and plates designed from an Architect or Engineer from a set of plans, then it would be considered a truss. That's not what we're talking about here.

First post from the Kiwi.



> Uhmmmmm....since the starting height for a standard wall is usually eight, nine or ten feet and the only place a standard wall has to go is up, then if a person tells me they have an eight foot ceiling and they will have a standard pitch roof then it "suggests" that he is using trusses or whatever you might like to call them. Unless you build things a little differently in your part of the woods...
> If he said pitched ceiling then I'd probably suggest he's going to use rafters...
> "Suggest" is the operative word.


Well, what to say to that. He has to get a roof anyway, right? So, why call it a truss and suggest a truss. I would ask the guy if it is a truss or a stick built/hand built roof, not just suggest truss. 

Second post from the Kiwi.



> mmmmm.....try this"a truss is a static structure consisting of straight slender members inter-connected at joints into triangular units. " OR "An engineered building component supporting the roof in place of rafters. Roof trusses are usually constructed in a triangular shape with a number of interconnected pieces that spread a load evenly across the truss."
> 
> In some cases, mostly in canopy situations, I build my own trusses. Otherwise you are right, I order them through the normal channels. It's not called a truss simply because you "buy" it, no matter how primitive it may look in the end, if you take one ceiling joist and create a pitch by adding two "rafters" to it, add some bracing timber and space that item at the usual intervals then congrats, whether you like it or not you have built a ceiling truss....
> 
> ...


There's that ceiling truss thing that you made up. It's over, done, your cooked. Next thing you'll be calling floor joists rafters alot of homeowners do which is acceptable. Consider this a Christmas gift from me to you to advise you to stop and quit while your not ahead.


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## kiwi54 (Dec 10, 2007)

You go for it Joe, don't hold back, tell it like it really is.....


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## Joe Carola (Apr 14, 2006)

kiwi54 said:


> You go for it Joe, don't hold back, tell it like it really is.....


Yes, that's always been one of my weak points....:wink: Merry Christmas!


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## beranbr (Jan 9, 2009)

*GC Cost*

Well most general contractors charge to do the job. So they will estimate the cost of materials and labor and then add a % to that number. By only quoting you labor he is saving the money he would mark the materials up.


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## Honest Josh (Jun 12, 2009)

AtlanticWBConst. said:


> Try getting a few more bids if you are unsure of the price quote....
> *Please find framers that will/do include the materials*. Why?
> 
> A.) So you do not have to ''disect'' and account for every nail and square inch of lumber used. Example: approximately 20% of all delivered lumber (framing and finish) is unfit for custom installation. Do you want to be out there with a tape measure and magnifying glass checking it? Calling the supplier? Culling thru and checking every peice of lumber delivered? .... unltimately, also, turning into a jerk to the contractor by nit-picking and questionsing every fraction of an inch of waste-cut-off, etc...?????
> ...


I don't know what "If you want to do business, or want to conduct business like "them", then you will only attract - "similar types"" means but there are plenty of solid, trusted, reliable builders out there that quote labor only jobs for any number of reasons including the ones that you listed and that doesn't make them a bad option. The OP already said he trusted contractor #2 so don't knock the small guy. I've got no credit, am just starting in this business on my own and drive an '88 toyota pickup with 200k miles but I'm a third generation carpenter, have an impeccable attention to detail and work like a rented mule so enjoy the payment on the $40k pickup you conveniently positioned in your avatar while I slowly soak up the high paying custom jobs, develop a cult-like following and incur little to no overhead. GFY

Honest Josh


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## jogr (Jul 24, 2007)

Why dig up a 2 1/2 year old thread?


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