# Toilet Flange Inside or Outside Drain Pipe?



## sledged

Let me start by saying this is an awesome forum I stumbled upon tonight and am glad I did. Everyone seems real very helpful from the extensive searching I have done to try and answer my question. I have not been able to find my answer so I thought I'd throw out my own question for you guys to help me out.

I am remodeling the bathroom in my condo and want to replace the toilet flange before i tile the floor but I want to make sure I do this right as I cant afford leaking onto my neighboor below. The drain pipe below the toilet is 3 inch diameter PVC pipe which had a destroyed cast iron flange over it. I removed the old flange and I was wondering if I could put a new flange that would fit inside the PVC pipe or do I need to get a flange that will go outside the PVC drain pipe so that I dont restrict the flow and cause clogging when the toilet is installed. I would like to put a flange that would go inside the drain pipe as i feel this would be less likely to leak. Is there a flange I can purchase at home depot or should I get a specialty one from a plumbing supply store? If anyone can shed light on this issue I would appreciate it. Thanks everyone in advance.


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## Just Bill

Always inside. But it is unusual to find an iron flange in a PVC pipe, how was it fastened. There should be a hub on the PVC, if not, use a Fernco sleeve to secure things.


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## oh'mike

Inside works fine---properly installed the outside ones also work well.

The flange should be installed before the tile---tile is cut around the flange.

If the ring is a bit low--you can get a thicker wax ring-------

However---if the flange is to high--there may not be enough room for your wax ring.

--Mike--


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## speedster1

oh'mike said:


> Inside works fine---properly installed the outside ones also work well.
> 
> The flange should be installed before the tile---tile is cut around the flange.
> 
> If the ring is a bit low--you can get a thicker wax ring-------
> 
> However---if the flange is to high--there may not be enough room for your wax ring.
> 
> --Mike--


???

I thought the new flange should be installed after the tile is laid with the flange sitting directly on top of the tile. With the new flange going inside the existing drain pipe.

At least thats how I did mine this past weekend.


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## plumberinlaw

Either way, your toilet probably has a 2" or 2 1/8" outlet


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## zircon

I admire your courage. I live in a condo and I rebuilt my bathroom, new shower ,fixtures etc. but I am on the ground floor. If I messed up, the leak would be into the basement. I would never have tried it if I lived on a higher floor with other owners under me. Huge potential grief from the person under you, the Board of Managers etc.


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## JakAHearts

speedster1 said:


> ???
> 
> I thought the new flange should be installed after the tile is laid with the flange sitting directly on top of the tile. With the new flange going inside the existing drain pipe.
> 
> At least thats how I did mine this past weekend.


In my bathroom, the entire flange was exposed and they have a larger repair flange bracket holding it underneath and to the subfloor. I didnt think it was right but it still worked. Ive since made it look like your diagram and that also works.

Shane


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## speedster1

JakAHearts said:


> In my bathroom, the entire flange was exposed and they have a larger repair flange bracket holding it underneath and to the subfloor. I didnt think it was right but it still worked. Ive since made it look like your diagram and that also works.
> 
> Shane


The diagram should really look more like this. I cna't imagine putting in a flange that went outside teh drain pipe. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen. 

It's like when you put tar paper on a roof you start at the bottom and overlap as you go upwards. If you did it the other way around rain would be able to flow under the lower tar paper


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## JakAHearts

Ah I didnt even notice that part of it. I was only looking at the relation to the tile/floor. My flange is inside the pipe.

Shane


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## Jim F

As I understand it the flange should be flush with the tile if possible, not sitting on the tile but I think it can be adapted to work either way.


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## sledged

Excellent advice guys, thanks again, makes me lil more confident when installing the new flange. Now for one more question I forgot to ask, how would you guys suggest removing the left over plastic from the old flange that is still glued into the drain pipe? The drain pipe sticks up out of the ground and seems to have some extra slack so I was thinking of cutting off the old flange with minimal reduction of the drain pipe length as possible. Anyone have any other suggestions? Its appreciated.


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## oh'mike

If the inside of the pipe is damaged with glue--consider using the flange that glues to the outside of the pipe.

I was serious about setting the flange first and then tiling up to it.That is the proper method.
I do kitchens and baths for a living. You can run into serious problems setting the flange on top of the tile.

Ask the plumbers if you don't believe me.---You do not want to be drilling into your tile to secure the flange to the sub floor? 

If my count is correct I've done 17 bath remodels in the last year---Put the flange first--then the tile.

---Mike---


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## mrlouie

speedster1 said:


> The diagram should really look more like this. I cna't imagine putting in a flange that went outside teh drain pipe. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> It's like when you put tar paper on a roof you start at the bottom and overlap as you go upwards. If you did it the other way around rain would be able to flow under the lower tar paper


If it's properly glued it shouldn't matter if it's inside or outside of the pipe... couplers, elbows, wyes and tees always will have one end with the wrong "overlap" from your analogy. They don't leak when primed and glued correctly, even when horizontal.


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## speedster1

mrlouie said:


> If it's properly glued it shouldn't matter if it's inside or outside of the pipe... couplers, elbows, wyes and tees always will have one end with the wrong "overlap" from your analogy. They don't leak when primed and glued correctly, even when horizontal.


Good Point


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## how2do

*Toilet Flange Height*

The flange should be mounted on top of the finished floor. No number of wax rings stacked will keep the toilet from leaking in the future. I found this product called "Set-Rite Extender Kit" it works with both new installations and remodel jobs. The kit has a flange gasket and also works with a wax ring. The company has an installation video on YouTube and their website. Saved me a lot of time and money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XeTjnH7OUc


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## proremodel

You never put the flange on the finished floor:no:. I have done countless bathrooms. Put it on the subfloor tile or hardwood around it then add the correct wax ring and you will have no issue ever. IF the toilet doesn't sit level or rocks use plumbers putty under the entire toilet and then tighten it back down. That will level your toilet. Don't forget to caulk around the lower edges. :thumbup:


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## how2do

ProRemodel...
I researched this topic of correct height of the toilet flange extensively online and through some building inspectors and they all said code-wise the height of flange bottom lip needs to be at the finished floor height. Many inspectors will not even allow the plumbers to rough-in a toilet flange until the finished floor is installed. Many a toilet installation has been completed by using extra or over-sized wax rings...One inspector told me "The oversized wax rings are not code compliant and just by having a thicker wax surface you actually have a much greater risk of wax ring failure down the road." You are not the first to disagree with the installation...many plumbers and apprentices have been doing it your way for decades...many times they would prop up the toilet flange with wood shims or copper pipe, prior to tile, not really knowing what the finished floor height would ultimately be...so basically if the tile/flooring people did not put their flooring under the toilet flange lip...it would just be standing there with what support? I am just telling you...go check out this set-rite toilet flange website they even sell just the spacers.....since you are a remodeler you'll like the snap-in-half feature of the spacers...I have used them myself...nice touch.
Tom


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## Docwhitley

how2do said:


> ProRemodel...
> I researched this topic of correct height of the toilet flange extensively online and through some building inspectors and they all said code-wise the height of flange bottom lip needs to be at the finished floor height. Many inspectors will not even allow the plumbers to rough-in a toilet flange until the finished floor is installed. Many a toilet installation has been completed by using extra or over-sized wax rings...One inspector told me "The oversized wax rings are not code compliant and just by having a thicker wax surface you actually have a much greater risk of wax ring failure down the road." You are not the first to disagree with the installation...many plumbers and apprentices have been doing it your way for decades...many times they would prop up the toilet flange with wood shims or copper pipe, prior to tile, not really knowing what the finished floor height would ultimately be...so basically if the tile/flooring people did not put their flooring under the toilet flange lip...it would just be standing there with what support? I am just telling you...go check out this set-rite toilet flange website they even sell just the spacers.....since you are a remodeler you'll like the snap-in-half feature of the spacers...I have used them myself...nice touch.
> Tom



Hey Tom,

I hope you do not mind me pointing out that you have been a member since 5-7-09 and you have made 4 post.... All 4 you have patched this company.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/my-closet-flange-too-high-42744/http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/closet-flange-trouble-antique-toilet-44888/http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/toilet-flange-inside-outside-drain-pipe-69943/http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/toilet-flange-inside-outside-drain-pipe-69943/_Toilet Flange Too High__
[URL="http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/closet-flange-trouble-antique-toilet-44888/#post276248"]Antique Toilet__
__Toilet Flange Height
__ProRemodel... I researched this topic of...
_[/URL]
Now some People come on here and pitch there company... I do not do that personally but, it is everyone's option. In fact... I have never Pitched my Company and if I supply a video it is usually one not even from my company but, a similar video. Now since you want to Pitch these Extenders so much let me ask you a few questions


1- How will buying a kit that provides spacers "Save time and money" compared to installing the flange on the Subfloor (Concrete board in Tile installations) and allowing the thickness of the flange to compensate for Linoleum Or as I do the washers that I use under the screws to raise it to the height of the tile? Please do a cost of your material... Mine is about $4.75.. My guess is you are between $25 and 30.

2- You state that it is against code- are you a Plumber? I have never failed an inspection because of the hieght of my flange ESPECIALLY when you consider that the wax ring is not crushed completely flat and will fill in any voids . That is was it is for. 

3- What makes this any better that installing the flange as I described? either way the flange will not be sitting on the floor and the weight of the water closet is not carried on the flange so the added support is not a factor... So please explain the benefit. 

4- This is directly from you-many times they would prop up the toilet flange with wood shims or copper pipe, prior to tile, not really knowing what the finished floor height would ultimately be...so basically if the tile/flooring people did not put their flooring under the toilet flange lip- I could be wrong here... BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SYSTEM DOES! The only difference is that instead of washers or a piece of pipe... you are wasting money on the spacer??? Please explain again how the $20 is less expensive and cheaper than the washers or the scrap 1 1/2 inch of pipe!

Last but not least if you have a vested interest in this company and you are just going to stop in to pitch it now and then... maybe you should let the posters all know
http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/my-closet-flange-too-high-42744-post271010/#post271010


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## how2do

Hey Doc...
All valid points....
A) I do not have any vested interest in this company Set-Rite, although I did meet the owner in 2008 at a trade show in Atlanta.
B) Pitching?? There's no pitching in Plumbing...or was it crying or maybe sweating...I forget...I just like the product and I think it is great.
C) The Spacer alone is worth the price of the kit I use it to cut the perfect hole for the flange on a wood subfloor...then I screw the 3/4" spacer in place so the tile guy tiles right up to the spacer. On concrete floors I tapcon the spacer down until floor is finished. I like them and buy just the spacers by the box. Plus..I can let my workers use them and I don't have any headaches with too big a hole etc. BTW I am a general contractor.
C) I gather that money is more important to you and actually with your $4.75 my price for a 3/4" spacer is Less @ $4.50 with Free Shipping. If you buy the Extender Kit which is used for really low existing flanges then it does cost close to $30.00 with Shipping.
D) Code....I am just telling you what the code is now...they have changed it and that is not to say some inspectors are not going to enforce it...In the Northeast they are...and the code to not allow a flange to be installed prior to the installation of a finished floor was instituted because there were so many poorly or incorrectly mounted flanges and subsequent floor damage to homes.
E) Most of the plumbers I have met over the past 30 years all have done flange installations similar to the way you describe...being a builder I personally like good foundations...the spacers work for me over some left over copper pipe, wood shims or washers...even if nobody ever sees it I will ...in my dreams...

I usually spend more time golfing than forumng but until the weather breaks...my wife cannot wait!
You do it your way Doc and I'll do it mine...i am sure you wouldn't have it any other way...
Tom


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## Docwhitley

how2do said:


> Hey Doc...
> All valid points....
> A) I do not have any vested interest in this company Set-Rite, although I did meet the owner in 2008 at a trade show in Atlanta.
> B) Pitching?? There's no pitching in Plumbing...or was it crying or maybe sweating...I forget...I just like the product and I think it is great.
> C) The Spacer alone is worth the price of the kit I use it to cut the perfect hole for the flange on a wood subfloor...then I screw the 3/4" spacer in place so the tile guy tiles right up to the spacer. On concrete floors I tapcon the spacer down until floor is finished. I like them and buy just the spacers by the box. Plus..I can let my workers use them and I don't have any headaches with too big a hole etc. BTW I am a general contractor.
> C) I gather that money is more important to you and actually with your $4.75 my price for a 3/4" spacer is Less @ $4.50 with Free Shipping. If you buy the Extender Kit which is used for really low existing flanges then it does cost close to $30.00 with Shipping.
> D) Code....I am just telling you what the code is now...they have changed it and that is not to say some inspectors are not going to enforce it...In the Northeast they are...and the code to not allow a flange to be installed prior to the installation of a finished floor was instituted because there were so many poorly or incorrectly mounted flanges and subsequent floor damage to homes.
> E) Most of the plumbers I have met over the past 30 years all have done flange installations similar to the way you describe...being a builder I personally like good foundations...the spacers work for me over some left over copper pipe, wood shims or washers...even if nobody ever sees it I will ...in my dreams...
> 
> I usually spend more time golfing than forumng but until the weather breaks...my wife cannot wait!
> You do it your way Doc and I'll do it mine...i am sure you wouldn't have it any other way...
> Tom


A- Just Seems strange that 4 out of 5 post (Including this one) supported this product. Even stranger that a General contractor has never posted in any other area... Maybe it is just me
B- I support many products and i will provide information to different techniques... Most of which I support and use but, in 176 post... i can not remember supporting the same product in almost all of my post
C- Actually customer satisfaction comes first to me and that is part of the reason i support this forum. If I can share my knowledge with a customer to help them ... I do. If money was my concern then you would see my company logo on the side and I would pitch my company in my signature. I will also add I have ads on this site for my company. Now my $4.75 included all of my material including the flange And my set up allows me to make required adjustments as needed with the flange. only difference is you have a full circle when using this product. Only addition is the cost. 
D- If you want to install the flange correctly then you need to actually install it so that the flange is installed but not glued till the tile is in place. The reason for that is you do not want to guess what the proper height of the tile will be. Then after the tile is installed you come back and adjust the height accordingly. Even with your method... you are guessing the height... The same thing you are saying it will avoid.... unless you buy the kit
E- You are correct... I will do it my way as a licensed plumber. I never tell a Builder how to frame... An Electrician how to run wire... or a cabinet maker the best wood to use... But again that is just me


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## proremodel

I don't want to fuel this fire but if you read what I wrote I said NOT ON THE FINISHED FLOOR. I never said not making it flush tho. IF I do a new install yes I make it flush. If I am just upgrading without moving plumbing I just leave the closet were it is at and use a thicker wax ring. I have also not failed a inspection for my plumbing setups.


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## hammerlane

I liked it flush. Helped that basement underneath was unfinished.


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## how2do

*Toilet Flange Installation Video*

Below is a link to a new video by the owner of Set-Rite when he was out at the National Hardware Show in May 2011. I believe this really supports my position on how a toilet flange is supposed to installed on top of the finished floor. just because many plumbers may or may not do it this way...in many municipalities in the Northeast the building inspectors are requiring that the toilet flange be installed 'after' the finished floor has been completely finished...

Here is the link to the video:

http://set-rite.com/video.html


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## Skoorb

how2do said:


> Below is a link to a new video by the owner of Set-Rite when he was out at the National Hardware Show in May 2011. I believe this really supports my position on how a toilet flange is supposed to installed on top of the finished floor. just because many plumbers may or may not do it this way...in many municipalities in the Northeast the building inspectors are requiring that the toilet flange be installed 'after' the finished floor has been completely finished...
> 
> Here is the link to the video:
> 
> http://set-rite.com/video.html


Just in case others are seeing this, there are people who say it should be over finished floor--many, many people. And many, many who say no.

As I may have mentioned in another bounced thread recently the new toilet I bought from Lowes absolutely will not fit over a flange that sits upon finished floor, PERIOD.

The spacing in that picture is huge--way, way more than my new toilet has. My new toilet when sitting on the tile has only a small space below it and if the flange is on top of tile the toilet would rock, and that's before any wax is applied at all.

Thus, in its case the flange has to be below. that isn't even a matter of opinion; for this particular toilet to work the flange must absolutely not sit above finished floor.

It can project a little above flush at the most. This is a jacuzzi toilet purchased in December, 2011. Any toilet will fit if the flange is flush but not all will fit if it's on finished floor.

If the toilet has lots of room like in the above pic, it will absolutely make sense to have flange on top of floor, to reduce chances of any leaks in the future, but they are not all built like that. I bet most aren't, in fact, but I have only seen the bottom of two


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