# Can plastic zip ties be used to join rebar?



## Daniel Holzman (Mar 10, 2009)

You can use any method at all, including welding, tieing with plastic, tieing with steel, or glueing, to hold the bars in position, as long as the material you use does not chemically interact with the concrete. And plastic is inert, so it is fine.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

I would suggest that they are not strong enough to withstand the force of placing the cement. There is no good reason not to use the metal tie wire meant for this purpose.


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## Leah Frances (Jan 13, 2008)

I haven't tied re-bar in years (like 17!) but I think even still I would be faster with wire than I would be with plastic ties.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

Only if it is not inspected. Re-bar overlap lengths, 5 twists ?, tie-wire placement spacing, tight radius bends on 90's, elevated distance or on dobies or chairs not bricks, etc., sometimes checked for residential, always for commercial around here.... If you have a lot of it...... http://www.toolfetch.com/rebar-tiers-rb655.shtml

Be safe, Gary


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Oh, those are sweet when they work.


But if those are not realistic, I strongly recommend one of these:

http://www.traderscity.com/board/userpix22/8935-tie-wire-rolls-cut-bag-ties-hand-tying-tool-1.jpg

takes a little getting used to but so much better than a pair of pliers.


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## Big Bob (Jul 27, 2007)

I assume they still make the looped at both end tie-wire ties to be used with the hooked (thing-ama bob) that you pull tight and spin...
dang I used to know what that was called.

very fast.. got to be way cheaper than the fancy tool GBR linked. 
also should be much easier than zip ties.. and I know meet the codes and
all the pulling and tugging wire mesh and rebar can be subjected too.

Cross post thing: Nap posted a pic.. ones I used had a straight hook though...still buried in the old concrete tool box ...I think...


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Big Bob they still do make that tool and most concrete crews do use them. 

There's NOTHING in the code that mandates the use of wire to tie rebar, at least nothing I've ever read. 

From an inspection standpoint, anything but tie wires SCREAMS amateur work. I've seen people use insulated electrical wire, and I assure you that the inspection was more thorough than it normally would have been because it speaks to the knowledge of the installer....Or potential lack thereof.

Personally I'd say it would work just fine, but there's no reason not to tie your rebar with accepted methods. No need to re-invent that wheel.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

actually, if the rebar is being used for a Ufer ground, I believe actual bare tie wire is required. Not positive but I believe it to be correct.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

nap said:


> actually, if the rebar is being used for a Ufer ground, I believe actual bare tie wire is required. Not positive but I believe it to be correct.


This applies more for commercial work. And when used as such (which is ofter done) the ground is cad welded, so even a better connection is required.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> This applies more for commercial work. And when used as such (which is ofter done) the ground is cad welded, so even a better connection is required.


it is very applicable to resi IF there is adequate rebar in the foundation. The code has removed the option of using the foundation as a grounding electrode and makes it mandatory as long as it meets the requirements stated within the code which defines such an electrode as:



> encased in at least 2 inches of concrete, in direct contact with the earth, containing at least 20 feet of 1/2" or larger rebar that is electrically conductive or at least 20' of at least #4 bare copper conductor.


and I'm not speaking to bonding the GEC to the rebar. That MUST be bonded using an approved means which is going to be either cadweld or an approved connector. Tie wire is not and probably never has been an acceptable means of bonding the GEC to the rebar in the foundation.

I was speaking only to rebar to rebar ties. Somewhere in my life I have learned that tie wire is an acceptable means to bond each rebar to another. 

Oh, here it is:



> 250.52(A)(3)
> 
> 
> rebar shall be allowed to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means.


Unless you can get an inspector to agree that zip ties are an "effective means" it is not code compliant. I can tell you, it is not considered an "effective means" in the areas I work in and neither is insulated wire. There have been some guys that have tried such things.


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## Bob Mariani (Dec 1, 2008)

I think we are all in agreement that the OP's idea is not needed, not good workmanship and even non compliant with codes.


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## rustyjames (Jul 20, 2008)

Daniel Holzman said:


> You can use any method at all, including welding, tieing with plastic, tieing with steel, or glueing, to hold the bars in position, as long as the material you use does not chemically interact with the concrete. And plastic is inert, so it is fine.


Dan, with all due respect, from the information I've seen, most of the rebar available in the US shouldn't be welded. Every project that I've worked on welding or heating the bar was not permitted. However, I suppose for residential applications it would be OK.


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## nap (Dec 4, 2007)

Bob Mariani said:


> I think we are all in agreement that the OP's idea is not needed, not good workmanship and even non compliant with codes.


I think we were in agreement before you attempted to correct me on the code and the requirements of a Ufer system.:wink:


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## walkman (Jan 4, 2009)

Okay. I have hundreds of those plastic zip ties lying around -- but I'll buy some more wire.


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## Aggie67 (Dec 20, 2008)

rustyjames said:


> Dan, with all due respect, from the information I've seen, most of the rebar available in the US shouldn't be welded. Every project that I've worked on welding or heating the bar was not permitted. However, I suppose for residential applications it would be OK.


 
I don't recommend welding rebar made from scrap metal. It has to be a premium grade of rebar in order for it to be ok for me to approve welding. ASTM A706 is weldable without any additional procedure. But even though A706 is made, it's not made often. 

A615 is a lower grade with high carbon content. Even though it will physically weld together with the correct welding procedure (which includes preheating), if you do it wrong it will crystalize and crack, and create a weak point along the bar. So I don't let A615 welding fly on my work because there's no way to guarantee that the guys actually bring the torch out there and preheat the metal before tacking. It's just hard to fathom that they'll follow that procedure. So, I don't allow it. 

Also, a plastic zip tie costs 7 cents a tie from my local supplier, and comes in a plastic bag. A wire tie is 2 cents, and comes in a bandolier. It takes seconds to put a tie on with the $3 twister.


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