# Reinforcing notched double top plate



## USP45 (Dec 14, 2007)

You can simply use a 1-1/2 steel plate that has holes in it about 12" long. Center it and nail it. They actually have a plate for this at any plumbing supply house


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

Agreed, even if he did drill the proper hole, here the inspector would want a nail guard plate over it anyway. I always insist on holes and not notches from my plumbers, unless its unavoidable, which in your case a hole would of been fine and then no need for that clamp.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Actually, there's a bigger problem that can't be fixed with a plate. The joist to the right of the notch is now supported on what is essentially a cantilevered top plate, since the bulk of the plate has been removed and the stud to the left no longer supports it. A stud needs to be added to the right of the pipe, supporting the top plate on the right side of the notch. That way the joist's loads are transferred solidly downward.

The aforementioned metal tension strap is sometimes necessary, often depending on the sheathing of the building. It is always a good idea to restore the top plate's tensile strength by installing a strap across the notch. The tension strap will not function to restore bending resistance to the top plate, but is nonetheless important. Check out Simpson MSTA16...They're widely available and have plenty of nailing holes for this application. 








Furthermore, nail strike protection is required where the pipe penetrates the plate. The entire thickness of the top plate must be covered with a steel nail plate, and that plate must hang down 2" from the underside of the top plate. This is to prevent screws and nails from going into the pipe when you're hanging drywall, crown, or cabinets and is a code requirement. The correct plate is approximately 5"x8". Here, we call them BOCA plates. The BOCA plate cannot serve as a tension tie to restore any structural integrity to the plate...They're not long enough.

Simpson does make longer ones that can act as nailguards as well as tension straps, but most places don't keep them on hand...


http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/NS-NSP-PSPNZ.asp
Sioux Chief makes a wide selection as well.


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Actually, there's a bigger problem that can't be fixed with a plate. The joist to the right of the notch is now supported on what is essentially a cantilevered top plate, since the bulk of the plate has been removed and the stud to the left no longer supports it. A stud needs to be added to the right of the pipe, supporting the top plate on the right side of the notch. That way the joist's loads are transferred solidly downward.


Grrrrr...that's what I was afraid of. Hacking up the top plate really wasn't necessary...they just went into an existing notch and gouged it out.

Is there anything more to this fix than the nail plate and nailing a 2x4 along the top plate to the right of the hole? 

Seems like the homeowner should not be responsible for this.


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## Chemist1961 (Dec 13, 2008)

KCT says a fresh stud to the right of the pipe to vertically support the load from the joist and top plate above. He's the code guy, do it his way...


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Yeah Pmoe, the plumber...I mean wood butcher...Hosed you by making what might have been an allowable notch even larger. Nothing against plumbers, but many of them have little or no regard (or understanding) for the structural integrity of the buildings they work in. 

Your best bet is adding a VERTICAL stud to the right of the notch. Beefing up the plate with addition 2x plates won't really do anything for you. Also, don't disregrard the advice about the metal tension strap and nail guards. Although the tension strap is a structural issue, the nailguards at the top and bottom plates and any stud penetrations are plumbing 101, and should be provided by the plumber.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

Dam I missed that one,KC>
And now that you mentioned it.
I'm wondering if there is a horizontal sink drain that is tied into that vent pipe. 
In which case the poster will have to call the plumber back to drill and install it through the stud. 
BOB.


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

buletbob said:


> I'm wondering if there is a horizontal sink drain that is tied into that vent pipe.


Nope. That's just a tub drain coming straight up.

However, the plumber is coming back anyway, cause they pitched the toilet drain the wrong direction and installed the hose bibb horizontally instead of vertically. :huh:


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Was this guy the low bidder? :laughing::no:


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

thekctermite said:


> Your best bet is adding a VERTICAL stud to the right of the notch.


Just to the right of the notch? Or sistered onto the nearest stud to the right?

And, yes, this was the lowest bid. I talked to the owner today, who wasn't real happy with the guy who screwed up. (Since when do you 'eyeball' drain pitch?) 

He sent another couple of guys over today to rip out the mistakes and fix them. I think I'm OK now, outside out of the gouged top plate.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

If your looking for a quick reply. Let me answer this for him. He meant under the ceiling beam to the right of the pipe. apply some construction adhesive on the back edge that butts against the exterior sheathing. this will keep the stud from twisting or bowing when you install your wall covering. unless you can get to the outside and nail the sheathing into the stud. BOB.


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

buletbob said:


> If your looking for a quick reply. Let me answer this for him. He meant under the ceiling beam to the right of the pipe.


Winner winner chicken dinner. Bob nailed it. :thumbsup:

Add that stud just to the right of the notch so the solid section of plate supporting the joist is supported between to studs.


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

A small problem...that vent pipe is actually offset. It comes up in the middle of the stud cavity:










Then goes over to the gorge. (I assume they did this so they could re-use the existing notch, which wasn't nearly so deep.)

Now what?


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

looking at both your photo's the vent appears to be running up plumb with your existing stud, which then I see a wider space at the bottom then at the top. so then there has to be some sort of elbows mid way up correct?
if so then they have to cut the pipe between the ells and then you can install the stud and have them drill through it and reconnect. also do you have slack for the wires running along the base for the stud?

AS for KC!:thumbup: I'm shooting for a lobster dinner :laughing::laughing:


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Honestly I'm not seeing how that is a problem at all. The new stud will be to the right of the pipe and the pipe shouldn't get in the way at all.

Post a full view of the wall so we can see exactly what is going on here.


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

Here you go:










If the stud goes right beside the notch on the top right, it's going to hit vent pipe at the bottom.


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)




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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Ahh, got it. Just angle the stud from right to left a little bit. Although unconventional, it will serve its purpose just fine. I'd recommend setting the saw a few degrees off of 90* to closely match the angle at the top and bottom to keep things as tight as possible. :thumbsup:


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

Here is what I came up with. I hope it works, cause it's Liquid Nailed and toenailed in place now.


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## 4just1don (Jun 13, 2008)

Both Bob and KC are in MY mind responsible for the coke spewed on my screen. Or do I get the 'booby' prize and have to send my slaves to clean and send the bill to??? LOL!!! You guys are waaaaay too funny,,or I havent found anything else to laugh at this month!!


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

4just1don said:


> Both Bob and KC are in MY mind responsible for the coke spewed on my screen. Or do I get the 'booby' prize and have to send my slaves to clean and send the bill to??? LOL!!! You guys are waaaaay too funny,,or I havent found anything else to laugh at this month!!


YA! I started laughing after seeing post #17 with the picture. that's a lot of work for supporting one 2x4 ceiling beam after seeing that the rafters in the next bays are supported underneath any way. But :whistling2:


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

buletbob said:


> YA! I started laughing after seeing post #17 with the picture. that's a lot of work for supporting one 2x4 ceiling beam after seeing that the rafters in the next bays are supported underneath any way. But :whistling2:


Argh. 

I have trouble taking good pix in a space that's only about 65" wide. 

So I didn't need the angled 2x4x10?


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

Unless I'm missing something I sure as heck think you did exactly what you needed to do. The cut top plate is not capable of carrying loads downward to studs if it is notched out, and it has a structural member sitting on it, so there are loads (even if it is just a ceiling joist). Adding the stud was the prudent thing to do. If the humorous part is the angle of the stud, I assure you it will do the job just fine, and isn't all that uncommon for dealing with this exact thing even in new construction. :huh: You did it right.


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

Sorry KC / Pemo when seeing post #17 and seeing the plumbing rough .
all's what they hand to do was to run the tub drain 90 degree to the wall and straight up to the top plate that was all ready notched. the owner mentioned that they tried to use the existing notch that was all ready there. which should of been large enough for the new pipe if it was galv pipe. just poor planing on the hacks part. and the home owner gets stuck with the repair. If it was me I would of cut there pipe installed the stud plumb. and called them back, said the inspector failed the job because of there hack. pointed out to them what they screwed up and had them reinstall the pipes the correct way. Now they would of learned the correct way and hopefully the next owner wont get burnt. That's my point
They needed to be tough a lesson, What I meant to say was, there was a lot of discussion for a single ceiling beam.:laughing: caused by the hacks.

No insults attended for you KC/Pemo
I guess that chicken dinner just turned into a peanut (salmonella) sandwich BOB :laughing:


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

buletbob said:


> No insults attended for you KC/Pemo


None taken. I'm just sick of paying people to do stuff and then having them botch it, or leave it in some incomplete or unsafe state that requires me to spend more money/time/labor fixing it.

Today I was installing nail guards that the electrician should have put in. Tomorrow I'll be in the crawl space stapling up the NM that he should have stapled up.

Another case in point:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/240v-baseboard-heater-12-2-10-2-a-33328/


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## pmoe (Dec 7, 2008)

BTW, a big thanks to everyone for advising me on the repair!

:thumbup:


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## buletbob (May 9, 2008)

pmoe said:


> None taken. I'm just sick of paying people to do stuff and then having them botch it, or leave it in some incomplete or unsafe state that requires me to spend more money/time/labor fixing it.
> 
> Today I was installing nail guards that the electrician should have put in. Tomorrow I'll be in the crawl space stapling up the NM that he should have stapled up.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. If your going to do something do it the correct way or don't do it at all, (that's why this country is in the state its in.greed & Hacks) BOB


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## Termite (Apr 13, 2008)

pmoe said:


> None taken.


x2!!! :thumbsup:


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