# Ventilating a basement cigar room



## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Hello fellow wizards,

In this post I'm looking for help on inexpensive ideas for cigar smoke removal and fresh air intake. I've done some research, but first here's the build out of my finished basement room.

Long basement is geneprally cold and unheated, one Owens Corning finished room approximate 2400 CF rounded up generously (18'x19'x7' plus allowance for the treadmill (2.5' x 5') wall carved opening and the stairway behind the wall) in the middle of the basement.
Lowered ceiling is about 7' high.
Carpeted, lit up with 10 recessed lights plus 2 wall hanging lights.
2 electric overpowered baseboard heat lengths on adjacent far corner walls.
Desk and filing drawers in the corner area where the baseboards are.
A 50 CFM exhaust fan above the desk in the ceiling tile, but I didn't pipe it anywhere because I started thinking bigger picture.
Two opposite walls:
- one wall has a stairway to the upstairs with a door at the top, and a door downstairs to a 3000 Sq. Ft. unfinished room in the basement with a window that slides open to a screened 1'x1'.
- other wall has double doors leading to my DIY shop with a window that slides open to a screened 1'x1', a door to the upstairs backyard, a full bath with a baseboard tied to my boiler controlled by an upstairs thermostat, and a boiler room
All basement doors have a 1" opening at the bottom, which will effect ventilation, especially when the 1'x1' windows are open.

Not sure if I forgot any important details but please do let me know if I did and I'll add them. I was thinking about installing 2 to 4 quiet 200 CFM exhaust fans and replace the existing one with some sort of fresh inlet and seal the bottoms of the doors. Not sure how effective this is going to be but I want to make sure that there will not be a smoke - wife exchange (I.e. cigar smoke goes upstairs - wife goes downstairs, man cave idea goes out the window).

Thank you all for your help and guidance.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

How about some pictures? 

Instead of running multiple fans in series, why not just a large enough bathroom fan to move enough air. 

I wouldn't worry about make up air. Most homes are plenty drafty to allow for the make up air. 

Do run whatever set up you put in and make sure that any combustion equipment is not backdrafting.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Large fan is most likely going to make more noise than I like. I figure if I can get a few quiet fans in the ceiling, .8 to 1.4 Sones, that might do the job and allow for abnormal conversation. I wonder if multiple fans will collectively raise the dB levels!

I like the point you make about the combustion and draft. I'm assuming you mean my boiler in the next room. I also have an indirect-fired water tank. I'll upload some pictures of the room as soon as I can. 

Are you saying I should also leave the gaps under the doors open, and open both windows in the basement? 

How do I get fresh air into the room while pulling exhaust cigar smoke out? Location of exhaust and intake? Should I plug into the window in the adjacent room? Or straight out through the wall and siding? I'll need to upload picture to orient the seating. 

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it.


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

I wouldn't bother with the fresh air intakes. Allow the make up air to come from the house. This will ensure a negative pressure on the room relative to the rest of the house so the odor won't leak into the house through cracks and such. If the room receives any positive pressure at any time (like when the fans are off and a breeze blows through the fresh air intake), you will blow the odor into the house.

You don't need to create a wind tunnel in the room (although the faster you remove the smoke the better), but it is extremely important to keep the room under a negative pressure. If this is going to be a serious smoking room then I would probably go with a larger fan for when it is occupied and a smaller fan kept on at all times to ensure a lower pressure room.

As for air make up... a one inch gap at the bottom of the door should be fine


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Thank you for your feedback. For a 2400 ft.³ room do you like a man using for 200 CFM fan?


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Actually, the 2-200 CFM fans are a good idea(parallel installation). You want to bring in 200CFM of fresh air(can be brought in passively, as in just a duct without a fan) and pull the other 200CFM from under the doors. Specially any door leading to the main area/upstairs. You'll also want them to run for several minutes after your done in the man cave.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Windows on Wash said:


> How about some pictures?


Here are the pictures, pre-ventilation. You can see the ceiling fan in the picture with the clock.

Thank you for all of your advice and feedback. I need all the advice I can get to make this right.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Sheiweeesh said:


> Thank you for your feedback. For a 2400 ft.³ room do you like a man using for 200 CFM fan?


Boy auto-correct really butchered that message of mine. What I really meant to say was: for a 2400 cubic feet room do you think I should use 2 or 4 (or more) 200 CFM fans? How?

Thanks again.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

OK, I'll play the devils advocate. Here are some problems and these come from someone who has a wife who can detect cigar smoke 100 yards away. I'm also an energy auditor who deals with those negative pressures mentioned.
1. Even if you exhaust that smoke, some of it will filter back in by way of other leaks and normal air exchange. Note, a typical house will on average replace all of the inside air every 3 hours and you will be polluting that incoming air with your smoke. If anything, that exhaust should exit 3' above the roof line and even that it will not guarantee zero smell coming back into the house.
2. If you use powered exhaust fans, then the passive intake opening would need to be MUCH larger than the powered exhaust. If your combustion appliances are naturally drafted your negative pressure limit is around -6 Pascals and that has to include all other exhaust capacity, bath fans, kitchen fan, dryer, and others for worst case. 
3. As mentioned, even with a substantial negative pressure down there a good wind from a bad direction will easily force the basement air up into the house.
4. Then, as mentioned again, the residual smell will not go away. Hotels will have rooms designated for smoking and non-smoking (and cigars would be even worse) and on a particular business trip I had to check in without a reservation and a room for smoking was all they had available. I quit smoking 30 years prior and it was tough for me. If my wife had been along we would have slept in the car.

My reason for being so negative is to prepare you for being evicted from your man cave. I don't think any reasonable effort will keep that fragrance from making it upstairs.

Bud


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

i'm curious, why do you care about air quality in a cigar room when you're going to be inhaling the carbon monoxide, tar, and other deadly chemicals directly in there?

it doesn't make much sense.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

Great feedback. Thank you all, but I'm not certain I have a set direction yet.

I do realize that I need to maintain a negative draft in the man cave. I also realize that I need to make sure I replace the air somehow, either through the bottom of the doors and from Thebes's windows in the next room, or how about this, what if i can exhaust through one wall and bring fresh air in through another wall? I can run the exhaust to go near my boiler exhaust and pull in fresh air from another side of the house to make sure the air doesn't get mixed. 

Bud, I appreciate all the valuable heads up but there is just no way I can run anything through the roof. Keep in mind this is a basement level, there's still a living floor above and then the attic. I'm not that experienced, so going to the attic is not a diy job for me. Do you have any feasible recommendations that you've seen in your line of work? 

Thank you all for your contributions to a possible solution.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

user_12345a said:


> i'm curious, why do you care about air quality in a cigar room when you're going to be inhaling the carbon monoxide, tar, and other deadly chemicals directly in there?
> 
> it doesn't make much sense.


Good question. I don't want the smoke to go upstairs to the living space. If I maintain a negative draft then the room can be enjoyable with a couple of scotches, some friends and some Montecristos. I live in the northeast where it's not fun to go out on the porch in the winter time with a scotch and a cigar for an hour, even with friends, where the outside temps will freeze "things" instantly. Just want to have a place at home where we can relax and let loose. Cheers.


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## user_12345a (Nov 23, 2014)

you mentioned windows.

Have you thought about a window fan? they're fairly affordable and don't need real installation. they move more than 200 cfm, put it under negative pressure.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

The windows are in the two adjacent rooms. If I use them for draft tge. I'd be contaminating those rooms, which is not what I want to do. Thanks for your input.


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## Sheiweeesh (Feb 2, 2017)

I thought about a window fan but the windows are in the adjacent rooms, which means the smoke would have to travel through those rooms, which is not desirable. Thank you for your question.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

Back in the days when people were still allowed to smoke at their workplace I had seen several locations where they designated a break room and equipped it with a self contained filtration system. Now, even that would not eliminate the cigar fragrance but it might reduce it to a point where the ventilation you are considering could be more effective.

Also, consider a room within a room. It might not have to be an actual room but if you designate a space where you will be doing most of the smoking then it would be easier to contain the cigar odor. Picture a space with its own ceiling and 3 walls where you could exhaust out the back and supply fresh air to that open front. The fresh air and exhaust could even be basement air if it was passing through a good filter.

You said "or how about this, what if i can exhaust through one wall and bring fresh air in through another wall? I can run the exhaust to go near my boiler exhaust and pull in fresh air from another side of the house". If you reverse that flow it would be adding air to the furnace room instead of pulling it more negative. 

Bud


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## supers05 (May 23, 2015)

I would add:
1) A hrv to that room, with extra prefilters on the exhaust grill. (200 cfm or so.) Balance it so that more air is exhausted then make up air pulled in. This is run continuously in slow speed, with a switch or timer to activate high speed. 
2) An extra exhaust fan. (150-200 cfm) It will be a switch and/or optionally interconnected with the HRV. (one switch makes it more likely that you'd use both.) 
3) run a 6" duct to the furnace return air plenum from outside. Allow for 5-10ft for mixing. (more is better) It's optional, but you could also add a damper with an actuator so that it's not always open full. Use prefilters on this too. Keep it 6ft or more from gas regulators or other exhaust outlets. Interlock the furnace fan with the hrv. Close off most, or all the furnace registers in that room. 
-if the boiler is all that you have, then run a duct with a duct fan into a centralised room. It'll need to be heated in the winter time. A window fan will work, but it's hard to control those, and that room will be cold in the winter.
4)put weather stripping on the doors and try to reduce the 1" gap under the doors. 
5) if you can, I'd put up a vapour barrier in every interior wall/ceiling of that room. Seal it up well. 

This all will depressurise the room, while pressurizing the rest of the house. Provides constant ventilation on low to help with lingering smells. The 6" fresh air damper will not seal perfectly, allowing for the house to be permanently slightly pressurized to help keep those lingering smells in that room. 

Side effects:
-that room won't have AC anymore. It'll get warm in the summer. Being in the basement will help, but be prepared for that. Humidity will be high during the summer. 
-nothing well completely stop the smoke smell from traveling throughout the house. This is just substantially mitigating it.
-complexity. Easier for something to break. 
-if you plan to sell the house in the future, it may effect the sale price. (I'd avoid such a house personally.) 

Cheers!


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

The fresh air duct to bring in 200 CFM out of the 400 CFM exhausted, would only need to be a 7" duct. As you would want to have that room under about .3" negative pressure. This causes the a lot of replacement air to be drawn from the other rooms that have doors that are under cut joining it. So you won't have cigar odor going up those stairs.

Plus, it brings conditioned air down from the first floor, so the basement doesn't become too cold or too hot and muggy. Will probably still need a dehumidifier in the summer.

PS: An exhaust fan able to move 200 CFM at a static of .5" may be expensive, and louder then you want.


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

beenthere? 0.3" is about 10x what a naturally drafted furnace or boiler can handle. Do we know for sure what he has for those appliances?

Bud


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

Bud9051 said:


> beenthere? 0.3" is about 10x what a naturally drafted furnace or boiler can handle. Do we know for sure what he has for those appliances?
> 
> Bud


Only his smoking room will be at that negative pressure. Not his mechanical room.


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## jlhaslip (Dec 31, 2009)

Been reading this thread with interest and had a thought about mounting the exhaust fans remote from the room to avoid some of the noise.
Is it conceivable and realistic to have the fans at the end of the vent pipe? And would that reduce the noise a bit? Would they be as effective?


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## Bud9051 (Nov 11, 2015)

I was looking at what appears to be a drop ceiling and assuming everything down there is subject to similar pressures.

Bud


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## Bob Sanders (Nov 10, 2013)

Bud9051 said:


> Now, even that would not eliminate the cigar fragrance but it might reduce it to a point where the ventilation you are considering could be more effective.


And that's exactly why the room needs to be kept at a lower pressure all the time.

I actually had a smoking room downstairs years ago, and no matter how much you exhaust, all you need is a few moments with that room at a higher pressure and you will smell it in the rest of the house.

In the beginning it's not an issue but over time the odor permeates the paint in the room as well as the furniture so exhausting simply clears the immediate smoke, not the odor.

I still smoke but not nearly as much (vape mostly now) but I still have the odd cigarette under the exhaust hood in the kitchen. When the exhaust hood and duct was new it wasn't an issue. But now every so often we get a slight back draft through the hood and the kitchen smells like an ashtray in minutes.

Anyway... like I said, you don't need to create a wind tunnel because eventually the exhausting isn't going to do anything other than remove the immediate smoke... but because of the odor the negative pressure is really important.


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## beenthere (Oct 11, 2008)

jlhaslip said:


> Been reading this thread with interest and had a thought about mounting the exhaust fans remote from the room to avoid some of the noise.
> Is it conceivable and realistic to have the fans at the end of the vent pipe? And would that reduce the noise a bit? Would they be as effective?


It will help reduce the noise from the motor/motors. But you then need a larger pipe to prevent air noise.



Bud9051 said:


> I was looking at what appears to be a drop ceiling and assuming everything down there is subject to similar pressures.
> 
> Bud


Above the drop ceiling, the pressure will be higher than the room. But lower than adjoining rooms, so odor should permeate above it.


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