# Concave Pella Windows melting my siding! **PICS**



## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum and need some window help.

The problem is that my neighbor's double pane Pella windows are concave and the resulting concentrated reflection is melting my vinyl siding. 

The same thing is happening to my other neighbor's siding from the concave Pella windows installed in my home. They've only been in their house for a year and have replaced their siding twice, and it has already melted a third time!

I'm not sure why the windows are so concave, but if I place a 2' straight edge across the window, there is an 1/8" gap from the straight edge to the glass in the middle. Over the full length of the window the gap is even greater.

I've tried working with Pella to find a solution and they have not been helpful at all.

I think that the least expensive solution to this problem is to install screens on the outside of the concave Pella windows to reduce the amount of energy reflected onto the siding. The problem is that these are single hung windows and are not designed for a screen on the upper part of the window.

*Is there a good way to attach a screen on the outside of the single hung windows?*

Here are some photos of the problem...


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

30 years in the business and I'd never even heard of this until just recently.
Just love it when the siding company says it's there fault, the window company says it there fault.
Luckely I've only see it and not had to deal with it.
Just thinking out loud, why not try a solor film. Simple to install, easy to remove if it does not work.

I would contact 3M directly and talk to there R & D Department. 
It would be a great nitch market for them.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...D7B0A70-85BC-4DE6-AD3E-F2AB01043BA0csC2jxsmWE


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply.

I've contacted a commercial window tinting company and they were not aware of any coatings that would reduced the reflected energy. They said that the coatings are generally designed to keep energy out of the building by reflecting it. They said that any additional coatings would just make the problem worse.

The reason I'm looking at a screen is that the bottom portions of the windows have screens and the heat from the concentrated reflection is significantly reduced. I can place my hand in the reflection from the lower screened portion and it's barely warm. If I put my hand in the reflected light from the upper portion it's very hot.

If I could somehow attach some screens in a secure way, I think it would help tremendously.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Sorry to here about your problem but at this time I’ve heard of no worthy solutions and I've been following this for a few years now. The siding, window and glass manufactures are aware of the problem but remain pretty tight lipped due to the potential huge liability. I’m sure at some point a class action suit will be works but who knows when and who’s to blame.

There have actually been a few fires attributed to this with cedar products.

This is one of the better reads I've found on the subject. http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/window-reflections-can-melt-vinyl-siding

Please keep us posted.


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## oh'mike (Sep 18, 2009)

This was discussed at Contractor Talk---If Tom Struble or Lone Framer see this---perhaps they might shed some light on the subject----As I recall there was not a solution--only a discussion.


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## Duckweather (Mar 26, 2012)

Short of putting a mirror on the side of your house this is a tough one. I may call my brother in law who was a physicist. If he doesn't have an answer, that takes at least an hour, maybe Pella needs a class action suit.


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## Duckweather (Mar 26, 2012)

Hey, who owns the two windows that are not in the photo of the reflection? Are we looking at two different houses?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

I have personally observed this on several homes in this area on adjacent garage walls.

First thing would be to get a window that was not concave. After that, you can attempt any of the following:



Put the low-e on surface 3 vs. surface 2
Get a solar control film on the outside surface
Specify internal mini blinds
Obscure glass
Skip the Low-e
Paging Oberon...... :yes:


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## rossfingal (Mar 20, 2011)

Just to add to what "WoW" says -
It's not just - "Pella" windows doing this!

rossfingal


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

I've seen it happen from the sun reflecting off of a boats wind shield that was parked in the driveway. 
It was between the first and second floor and there is no house next door.
Another one had Anderson windows.

The type film I'm talking about I think is called a solor screen. It does not reflect the light.
If you looked at it close it looks like tiny round holes in a black piece of film.
You can still see out the window but it reduces the glare.
Works the same as the films you may have seen covering whole vehichles to advertize a business.
I was wonder if that would make the window refract the light instead of reflecting it.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

how about a different siding. and/or some trees/bushes.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

Seems like a window issue to me. But the window manufacturer isn't going to admit it. I am sure there are ways to keep the glass flatter --- thicker glass, spacers between the glass,....) 
But since your siding is toast anyways (might be a poor choice of words), the easiest solution might be to replace your siding with something that can take the heat.


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## bbo (Feb 28, 2010)

seems as if the owner of the window is responsible ( and window owner would see about holding window manufacturer repnsible)

no different than mounting a magnifying glass on your house.

I'd say the windows would have to get replaced. looks like a high concentration of energy on the siding.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

bbo said:


> seems as if the owner of the window is responsible ( and window owner would see about holding window manufacturer repnsible)


I agree, but what is the neighbor going to do, keep replacing the window untill he finds one that stays straight? I don't think any dealer is going to guarantee that their window will not create intensified reflections (potential liability issues with all his other customers that are complaining, if he admits a bowed window is grounds for a replacement), so if the next window does the same thing, he would have to replace it again, probably on his own nickel. You risk just starting a war with your neighbor. And since the siding has to be replaced anyways, find something that will take the heat (although I am not sure exactly what that would be).


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

Hardee planks come to mind.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

SPS-1 said:


> Seems like a window issue to me. But the window manufacturer isn't going to admit it. I am sure there are ways to keep the glass flatter --- thicker glass, spacers between the glass,....


That’s how I see it. The glass isn’t concave by design. The window manufactures are walking on eggshells right now. If they offer solutions like films or whatnot then they’re admitting liability. 

This reminds me of after years of installing LP siding and then one day with each delivery we start receiving literature on sealing all cuts and the ugly butt joint protectors were automatically delivered with the siding. You know how that all ended up.

People with this problem should be documenting everything. I sure there will be payback someday, even if it is ten or fifteen years down the road.


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## joecaption (Nov 30, 2011)

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/window-reflections-can-melt-vinyl-siding


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

Already posted that link Joe but it’s about as good of an explanation as I’ve seen. 

I really haven’t seen any “new developments” on this issue in a couple of years other than more complaining…Just no solutions.


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## Gary in WA (Mar 11, 2009)

I was very surprised the first time I read about it. Posted these links on this forum almost 2 years ago; http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4223

http://www.wcnc.com/on-tv/Melting-Vinyl-Siding-tied-to-energy-efficient-windows-83583357.html

Vinyl is final....

Gary


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

,,,,,


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Fix'n it said:


> how about a different siding. and/or some trees/bushes.


Good idea, and that helps block the reflection from my West windows onto my neighbor's house to the West, but the reflections damaging my siding are coming from second story windows on my Eastern neighbor's house. There is no practical way to block the reflection with plants or fences.

I think placing a screen or a window film makes the most sense.

Anyone have experience with non-reflective external window films?


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## oberon (Apr 29, 2006)

Windows on Wash said:


> I have personally observed this on several homes in this area on adjacent garage walls.
> 
> First thing would be to get a window that was not concave. After that, you can attempt any of the following:
> 
> ...


I couldn't put it any better than Martin did in his Green Building Advisor article.

Interesting suggestions! I would strongly suspect that people who are working on this issue (and I also suspect that there are some very smart and very experienced people working on this issue), have looked at all of them as well as the other ideas that have been part of this thread.


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## oberon (Apr 29, 2006)

jjjdiy said:


> Good idea, and that helps block the reflection from my West windows onto my neighbor's house to the West, but the reflections damaging my siding are coming from second story windows on my Eastern neighbor's house. There is no practical way to block the reflection with plants or fences.
> 
> I think placing a screen or a window film makes the most sense.
> 
> Anyone have experience with non-reflective external window films?


There are anti reflective coatings for glass that are used primarily in electronic applications, but they are very expensive (and fragile), but I don't know of any anti-reflective coatings that are available on films.

I can see the potential for some very serious problems if someone were to put an anti-refletive coating on glass surface 1 of a window that had a reflective LowE coating on surface 2.


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## oberon (Apr 29, 2006)

SPS-1 said:


> Seems like a window issue to me. But the window manufacturer isn't going to admit it. I am sure there are ways to keep the glass flatter --- thicker glass, spacers between the glass,....)
> But since your siding is toast anyways (might be a poor choice of words), the easiest solution might be to replace your siding with something that can take the heat.


oops, double post


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## oberon (Apr 29, 2006)

SPS-1 said:


> Seems like a window issue to me. But the window manufacturer isn't going to admit it. I am sure there are ways to keep the glass flatter --- thicker glass, spacers between the glass,....)
> But since your siding is toast anyways (might be a poor choice of words), the easiest solution might be to replace your siding with something that can take the heat.


Glass is flat when it comes from the factory. Add it to a window and then install it in a home where you going to have changes in altitude, changes in barometric pressure, changes in temperature, then add wind and sun and the glass is going to move. It's going to bow in and it's going to bow out. This is window physics 101 and no one is going to change that part of the equation.


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## SPS-1 (Oct 21, 2008)

All materials deflect when a force is put on them. A dual plane window has a sealed gas in between the two panes. When the outdoor air pressure increases, the glass wants to bow inward. But there are ways to limit the movement. Thicker glass will bow less. And if you have a spacer bewteen the two planes of glass, that will also limit how far the glass can deflect. 

Thats Engineering 101.

And that is only what I came up with in 10 minutes. I am sure the window designers have better ideas than these. But when they fix the problem, they are effectively admitting they had a problem with their windows, and open themselves up to the possibility of have to replace the siding on hundreds (or more) houses.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

how close together do these house need to be, to have this issue ?


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

I haven't measured the distance but here is what it looks like. In the evening, the sun is in the West and shines on my neighbor's second story windows, reflecting a concentrating beam of energy onto my siding.









On the West side of my house, the evening sun hits my two concave Pella windows and melts my neighbor's siding. The one window can barely be seen in this photo as it's hidden behind the sandcherry...


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Distance is less of a deciding factor as is angle and focus location.

You can burn something from a good distance away if you focus it properly and at the right spot.


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Thanks for all of the information and replies.

It seems that my best option probably IS to use screens on the offending windows. Now, to my original question....

*What is the best way to attach external screens to the upper portion of the single hung windows?* These are vinyl windows, BTW.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

If they are vinyl, just order new full screens. They are cheap and will then be factory and properly attached.


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Windows on Wash said:


> If they are vinyl, just order new full screens. They are cheap and will then be factory and properly attached.


They are single hung windows. Full screens are not available, to my knowledge.

Here is what the window looks like. I need to cover this pane of glass with a screen.


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## oberon (Apr 29, 2006)

SPS-1 said:


> All materials deflect when a force is put on them. A dual plane window has a sealed gas in between the two panes. When the outdoor air pressure increases, the glass wants to bow inward. But there are ways to limit the movement. Thicker glass will bow less. And if you have a spacer bewteen the two planes of glass, that will also limit how far the glass can deflect.
> 
> Thats Engineering 101.
> 
> And that is only what I came up with in 10 minutes. I am sure the window designers have better ideas than these. But when they fix the problem, they are effectively admitting they had a problem with their windows, and open themselves up to the possibility of have to replace the siding on hundreds (or more) houses.


Are you suggesting that all IG units should be fabricated using thicker glass or by including spacers between the lites, or just replacement units for the windows that are involved in metled siding?


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

Buy your neighbor some awnings.:thumbup:
... Seriously though, I have dealt with this a couple of times recently (with clients), and we replaced the vinyl with a thicker (higher grade) and the homeowner added protection with bushes/trees or an arbor/pergola. Clearly, your situation is not such an easy fix. I do think that a full screen would add some protection, however I cannot see how how it could be added without looking terrible. Perhaps you could convince your neighbor to replace the offending IG's (and do the same on yours) with a new unit with no low-e (even if it is on your dime). That would hopefully correct both the concave glass as well as the highly reflective low-e coating.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Here's a solution from another angle: _aluminum_ siding?


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

Anything hot enough to deform vinyl siding is going to cause and accelerated failure of the finish on aluminum or hardie plank as well.


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## huesmann (Aug 18, 2011)

Yeah, but at least I don't think it's going to _melt._


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## HomeSealed (Jan 3, 2008)

The times that I have run into this, there is a smallish area of siding that has been affected (a square or two). Replacing the entire home with a completely different material is most often out of the question (the OP can elaborate on whether or not that is an option in this case)... Plus, as WoW said, it really is not addressing the problem. Even if the siding does not melt, it or its finish will fail far more quickly.


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## Windows on Wash (Aug 30, 2011)

huesmann said:


> Yeah, but at least I don't think it's going to _melt._


I sure hope it is not reaching 1,200 degrees but it will still melt and degrade the finish.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

Here is the report of the problem from the National Association of Home Builders. It provides some possible solutions to the problem. http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_details.aspx?contentTypeID=3&contentID=100529&subContentID=257914

capillary tubes may work depending on the gas used between the panes, check out the report

I have melted vinyl siding on the north side of my home from my neighbors windows. The vinyl on my home is older and not in the best shape. planning on replacing with some fiber cement clapboard.

hope this helps


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## CanAmGuy (Nov 13, 2012)

All double and triple pane windows will be concave or convex depending on the exterior temp vs interior temp.. The issue is how much the window is bowing. In your case, the window's curving far to much. More than likely those Pella's are low-end ones and need to be replaced. I had a few Pella's in my house (purchased from lowe's before I was educated on windows) and have since replaced them with better quality windows. Fortunately mine weren't melting my neighbors siding. As one person pointed out, Pella isn't the only brand that has had this issue. We've had customers with Anderson, Bonneville, Peachtree and various vinyl windows have similar issues. In a more than 1 case it ended up in court between the neighbors on who was responsible to pay for the damage.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

and what did the court say?


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## CanAmGuy (Nov 13, 2012)

In the one particular case I recall, the homeowner of the window was responsible for paying to replace the neighbors siding. To avoid having to do it again the following summer he also replaced the window. No issue since then other than I'm sure they neighbors aren't very social to one another. In that case it was an Anderson 100 series window (36"wx60"h) and the siding was Kaycan vinyl D-4.

- one additional note.. The homeowner did try to go back on Anderson, but they stated it wasn't a warranty issue.


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm actually shocked that a judge would take the case since there are no building code or manufacturing issues. live and learn

this is the notice put out by the Board of Building Regulations and Standards in Massachusetts http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dps/inf/inf-bbrs-vinyl-siding-distortion-advisory-aug10-10.pdf (pretty much the same as my other post)


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## CanAmGuy (Nov 13, 2012)

GBrackins said:


> I'm actually shocked that a judge would take the case since there are no building code or manufacturing issues. live and learn
> 
> this is the notice put out by the Board of Building Regulations and Standards in Massachusetts http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dps/inf/inf-bbrs-vinyl-siding-distortion-advisory-aug10-10.pdf (pretty much the same as my other post)


Small claims court in a a rural court. The Judge is also a volunteer firemen and semi-retired farmer..lol


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## GBrackins (Apr 26, 2012)

gotcha


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## Jocobe (Aug 3, 2012)

It is not caused by the LowE coating. It is caused by the inert gas between the glass. It is called collapsed glass. The argon molecules leak out of the sealed insulated glass unit. The ambient air molecules are too large to migrate into the sealed unit. Hence a vacuum. 

This can be repaired by allowing the ambient air inside the sealed unit and resealing again. Some manufacturers have an actual repair process.


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

I've looked into other types of siding, but I cannot afford to have my entire house re-sided. Having just the affected wall re-done with new vinyl will be bad enough @ over $2k. I'm afraid, like some have mentioned, that even with hardee plank or aluminum I could still have issues with the finish.

Right now I'm just focused (pun intended) on trying to reduce or block the reflected energy. 

Pella has gone into "lawyer mode", now, and will not speak with me on the phone or by email. All communication must be snail mailed, now. Fantastic. Thanks Pella for your great customer service.


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## kwikfishron (Mar 11, 2010)

jjjdiy said:


> Pella has gone into "lawyer mode", now, and will not speak with me on the phone or by email. All communication must be snail mailed, now. Fantastic. Thanks Pella for your great customer service.


Well... just be sure to send off all those “snail mail’s” and document every thing you do in relationship to this. I still think this may be a class action some day.


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## ddawg16 (Aug 15, 2011)

jjjdiy said:


> I
> 
> On the West side of my house, the evening sun hits my two concave Pella windows* and melts my neighbor's siding*. The one window can barely be seen in this photo as it's hidden behind the sandcherry...


I wonder when the this neighbor is going to post about you melting their siding?


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Jocobe said:


> It is not caused by the LowE coating. It is caused by the inert gas between the glass. It is called collapsed glass. The argon molecules leak out of the sealed insulated glass unit. The ambient air molecules are too large to migrate into the sealed unit. Hence a vacuum.
> 
> This can be repaired by allowing the ambient air inside the sealed unit and resealing again. Some manufacturers have an actual repair process.


What causes the "collapsed glass"? I've read that the Argon can leak out and the air can't get back in. This really doesn't make any sense to me, however. If there is a vacuum between the glass causing the panes to bow inward, I don't think the Argon would be leaking out. And if there was a leak, the vacuum would certainly be able to suck in outside air to equalize with the atmospheric pressure outside.


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## Jocobe (Aug 3, 2012)

jjjdiy said:


> If there is a vacuum between the glass causing the panes to bow inward, I don't think the Argon would be leaking out. And if there was a leak, the vacuum would certainly be able to suck in outside air to equalize with the atmospheric pressure outside.


The argon leaking out causes the vacuum. Ambient air molecules are too large to migrate back in......hence the vacuum.


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## AllanJ (Nov 24, 2007)

You could approach the subject from the product liability point of view.

Meanwhile you would need to mitigate the damages, namely, not replace your own damaged siding until a resolution is agreed upon.


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

has anyone put a straight edge on these windows ?


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Fix'n it said:


> has anyone put a straight edge on these windows ?


Yes. Over a 2' section there is a 1/8" gap in the middle. It would be slightly more than that over the full length of the glass.


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## mknasa dad (Dec 1, 2012)

You guys on this last page have it right. That is collapsed glass. It is very fixable, but Pella is very wishywashy on any type of warranty work. I was dealing with them a couple years ago and they claimed to have never heard of it. I was able to get it warrantied for the broken glass, but it took alot to get it warrantied. It is an industry wide issue for any manufacture that used Cardinal glass at the time. And depending on how bad the glass has collapsed, the glass will eventually either get seal failure, or in some cases, break.


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

Pella is horrible to deal with and their warranty is a joke. 

When I first contacted them about the glass, they told me over the phone that it was not supposed to be concave and that they would have to have someone come take a look at it - at my expense!

After multiple calls and complaining to the service manager, she finally agreed to send someone out free of charge.

The Pella tech that they sent couldn't find anything wrong with the windows using his flashlight reflection technique so I had to show him that they were concave by placing a straight edge on the glass. He said that they would provide the glass for free, but I would be responsible for paying their techs to install them. Warranty only covers materials, not installation.

Guess how much they wanted to replace the upper glass panlles on just two windows...... *$700!!!* That's right. $700. Fantastic warranty scheme they have going. I bet they make more profit on their warranty work than they do selling their crappy windows.

Buyer beware when it comes to Pella.


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## mknasa dad (Dec 1, 2012)

FYI- Their installation is not madatory. You can get someone else to install it if you don't feel competent. There are guidelines for what is affected by the collapsed glass. Whoever comes out there should check every window, not just the ones you see. They should have a laser tool to measure it, not a flashlight.

If you have any questions, PM me.


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

mknasa dad said:


> ...There are guidelines for what is affected by the collapsed glass. .....


Are there standard specifications for how much curvature is normal with these double pane windows?


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## rjgabor (Apr 25, 2013)

I have the same situation, except that reflection from my windows is melting my own house...this is occurring anywhere that the window is at a right angle to a wall of siding. Mine are single-hung as well and on 2 of them that aren't super visible to anybody, I used some strong double-sided tape to attach screens over the top half of the window. I also ran a bead of caulk down the sides. It doesn't look as bad as you'd think. 

But I have 2 more windows I need to address and was wondering if you had ever come up with a different solution??


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## <*(((>< (Mar 6, 2009)

There is a "This Old House" where Tom Silva heads over to a lady's house where her window is melting her vinyl siding in one corner. His fix was to affix an oversized screen (the same dimensions as the frame of the window) to the window frame with self adhearing velcro, so one is able to take down the screen for cleaning. The screen provides a break for the sun's reflection. He then proceeded to replace the vinyl siding.


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## rjgabor (Apr 25, 2013)

aaahhhhh...the velcro idea is very good as long as it would hold up to strong wind gusts. Thanks for sharing that!!:thumbsup:


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

I ended up attaching screens on my neighbor's two 2nd story windows as well as my own two windows that were melting my other neighbor's (West) siding. We chose screws for attachement as we often get high winds where we live a couple of times a year and it's likely that velcro would come off. I tried the 'industrial strength' velcro, but trying to pull screens off with those fasteners can easily result in bent screen frames if you can even get them off.

The neighbor to the West has replaced their siding again so I'm hoping that my screens reduce the amount of reflected light enough to prevent melting. Placing my hand in the focused beam of reflected light certainly feels cooler than it did prior to the screen. I've been monitoring their siding and so far I don't see any distortion. If my West neighbor's siding doesn't melt, I'm going to go ahead and replace all of the siding on my East wall. My siding is so distorted, now, that I can't tell if the screens are working.


*Does anyone know if there is a standard specification for how much curvature is normal with these double pane windows? *


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## rjgabor (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm just curious...are you guys filing homeowners insurance claims to cover these damages? Not even sure they'd accept such a claim.


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## jjjdiy (Nov 9, 2012)

rjgabor said:


> I'm just curious...are you guys filing homeowners insurance claims to cover these damages? Not even sure they'd accept such a claim.


Insurance will not cover this, unfortunately. All of the expense is coming out of my pocket.

Thanks for making concave windows Pella!! :furious:


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## Fix'n it (Mar 12, 2012)

my new windows are doing this, they are not pella's. i will get a pic asap. hopefully it doesn't damage my neighbors house.


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