# basement renovation



## MinConst (Nov 23, 2004)

If the insulation is good and intact you can build the walls without removing it. Leave a 1" or so space between the studs and the existing insulation.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

thanks for the reply minconst.
would you suggest using 2X4s or can i use furring strips?
Also, should the bottom plate be secured with glue as well as concrete nails.
How far apart should I put the studs?

as you can tell, I am fairly new at this, but I am determined.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Please remove the insulation, it is much better:

reason 1, in our code, you need to have barrier between insulation and concret wall, the builder didn't do that, you need to do it, by paint, or some sort of paper, see my post, "basement renovation question" talk about that...

reason 2, you wasting space for adding studs on top of it, it is going to be messy too, you will waste a lot of space...

therefore, do yourself a favour, tear down all insulation, put on studs/plates barrier, then insulation again, your insulation tore down can be resused...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

it would be a lot of work. the insullation is against block walls, that are not painted.
there is plastic over the insullation facing the outside.

i really would love to not remove it.


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## Kyle (Sep 12, 2006)

just remodeled my basement with the help of a friend/handyman. I will share what he told me...

I would recommend using 2X4 studs spaced 16" apart. It provides a stronger wall and more room for the insulation.

The bottom plate can be secured by concrete nails and does not need to be glued.

I am not aware of any code in my area that requires a barrier to be placed between the foundation (poured concrete) wall and insulation. I only used a sheet of platic as a vapor barrier between the insulation and the drywall.

Is the barrier between the insulation and foundation wall neccesary? For what purpose? 

Good luck-


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

thanks kyle for information.
I guess there is no need for barrier against concrete blocks. Mine does not have any.

did you secure the bottom plate and top plate first, and then proceeded at 16 inch intervals or did you build it outside and them prop up against the wall.

Is this a possibility?

Thanks for the good luck wishes, 
My husband has no clue about handiwork, so I am going to tackle this myself. 
He thinks I'm nuts.

Sometimes I agree with him.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Hi,

*Insulation:*
#1.) The insulation is absolutely FINE the way it is. 

Tho, it is best to have a 1-2" ventialtion air space between concrete and un-faced insulation, the present vapor barrier on the exterior side of your insulation makes it adequate. 
Dependant on the actual R-Value of the insulation that is already there, you may or may not want to add more insulation when doing the framing. If you choose to add insulation because the existing insulation is not up to R-Value, Use UNFACED insulation and DO NOT add another vapor barrier. Installing another vapor barrier creates an 'envelope' for moisture to get trapped. 2 vapor barriers is actually against building codes.

*Framing:* 
#2.) You could actually use 2x3's since the insulation is already there, but, as a 'newbie', I would advise using all 2x4's. You will want to use pressure treated 2’x4's for the bottom plates (PT on anything that you will attach to concrete). If you feel comfortable with such a tool: Use a 'powder actuated 22 caliber fastening gun'. Use *coated* 2 ½ “ nails or longer (ceramic ‘coated’ nails have a grey color to them. You need coated nails because the current pressure treated process used for wood contains heavy amounts of copper. This reacts with regular ’bright’ nails and causes rust) Get various levels of power for the firing caps. I suggest #3 & #4. return the boxes you don't use.

Use regular KD grade 2x4 Lumber for the top plates and the studs. Placed 16" OC (On Center). This means what is sounds like. The literal center of each stud (Half of the 1 1/2" will be exactly 16" away from eachother). Make sure that you pick out nice, straight pieces.
If you are unsure of using/renting a nail gun, you can use screws to attach your framing members. If you use screws, get at least 2 ½ “ or longer. I suggest using DECK screws (also for the areas where you attach studs to the bottom PT plate for the same reason as stated above) That length is sufficient, since you are not supporting anything structurally. You are just building ‘partitions’.

*Design:*
#3.) Do a layout of your basement on paper with the actual measurements of what you want to do with your basement area in relation to walls, closets, rooms, etc.

*Materials:*
#4.) Use this layout to determine the amount of lumber and other materials you will need.
Remember to get long straight lengths for you top and bottom plates (12’ - 16’)

*Method:*
#5.) How to build your walls is determined on the age of your home. You see, if you have an older home, then the heights between your concrete floor and your floor joists will be inconsistent. Additionally, there really are no poured-concrete basement floors that are truly level all the way through. 
To pre build walls and stand them up and have them fit right, in addition to knowing where to install ‘corners’, corner nailers, etc….is really not in the newbie skill level.
So, I would suggest you just go by the ‘stick-framing’ method. What this is, can be found in #7.)

*Note:*
#6.) Assuming you have a home 20 years old or less, if you have to build any doorways, it is unnecessary to install actual ‘headers’ on top of the doors, since these are only partition walls. Your house is already built with all the headers and supports that are supposed to be in it. We see this waste of time and lumber a lot in DIY-er basements.

*Stick Framing:*
#7.) If you are going to put a Sheetrock ceiling in, then it is best to start at your ceiling first and install strapping every 16” OC. This will also give you something to attach any walls that you build, which may run parallel to your floor joists. 
After you do that (even if you plan on installing a ‘dropped ceiling’) See the next step:

*Walls:*
#8) Layout your walls on your floors first by cutting and laying your PT 2x4’s on the floor. Mark where your studs will go FIRST based on your layout needs. Then fasten your bottom plate to the concrete floor. Fire-in your concrete fasteners between each stud. That way, if a nail does not go in all the way, it will not effect your stud placement (which you were smart enough to mark out before -You can also use concrete expandable fasteners for this, like “Red Heads“. Tho this takes A LOT more time)

*Marking out the studs for the top plate:*
#9) Take, a KD piece of lumber that you will use to make the top plate that will match that bottom plate and place it along side of the now installed PT bottom plate. 
Transfer the marked stud lines onto the top plate using a speed square (triangle). Much quicker and accurate this way. It’s how we frame entire houses.

*How to level the bottom and top of walls:*
#10) Cut a STRAIGHT piece of 2x4 to just over the length of your floor to ceiling height. You will use this as a straight edge to place your level against to mark up where your top plate will be on the ceiling. Just hold the straight 2x4 against one side of the bottom plate. Place a 4’ level or longer level’ against it. (we prefer to use a 6’ level for this) Then line it up to the ceiling and make a mark on the joist or strapping for the matching edge of your top plate.
Do this at one end, of the length of the bottom plate. And then at the other end of the bottom plate. Laying out this way for each length of wall.

*Studs:*
#11) Take the measurement for each of your studs. Cut them exact, to a 16th of an inch to get the stud to fit tight, but not so tight that it bends or bows. If you shortcut a stud, you can shove a shim into the space to tighten it. (Side point- virtually every piece of lumber has what is called a ‘crown‘. A crown is a slight ‘hump‘. Try to make all the crowns of your studs face one way…usually towards the inside of a room. This way, your walls aren’t wavy)
On all doorways that will have either a door or some kind of casing: Make sure that you 'double' the studs going all around the opening. This gives you about 2 1/2" beyond the door jam to be able to nail your standard 2 1/2 " casing to.

Last: As you go along, you can check your walls and studs periodically for alignment using your levels, framing square, eyeball, tape measure and even a string stretched tight to make sure a wall is straight.

:thumbsup: 
GOOD LUCK!


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I am in Toronto, the code does require a barrier between the insulation and the concrete, it is not the plastic type though, generally, HD book recommend paint,... I used those black paper which is used on roofing,

I can think of one scentific reason for this, should there small water leak, example, from rod hole, water does not contact insulation immediately, instead it will contact the paper and got vent away gradually, assuming the water is not big... 

Anyhow, reguardless of you want to have this barieer or not, you should take down existing insulation before setting up the studs.... you will find out it is much easier for you to set up the bottom/top plates without the insulation in your way,... I did that on mind, not only save you a lot of space as the insulation is bouncy, it is not a straight line...you end up more work with it in your way... tearing down insulation is much easier than you thought, I done mine in about 2 hours for the whole basement.... 

in addition, once you tear down the insulation, you got a chance to see if there is any serious cracks in your fundation wall, this is kind of a side product though...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

thanks atlantic construction for all the valuable information.

i really do need the step by step instructions.
will keep you informed of my progress.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

MinConst said:


> If the insulation is good and intact you can build the walls without removing it. Leave a 1" or so space between the studs and the existing insulation.


Like MinConst. wrote, Really, there is NO NEED to take that insulation off. 
As licensed General Contractors, we have done hundreds upon hundreds of basement remodels in the past 20 years, not to mention General construction and building. As stated, there is a vapor barrier between the concrete and the insulation already, so it is fine.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

hi 

the vapor barrier is not against the concrete wall. 
the soft pink stuff is right up against the concrete blocks and then the plastic is over it, which faces the inside of the room.


One further question that I have.
I have protruding drain pipes going down the sides, how do I frame around them?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

That is why I like to do basement renovation myself. Not to say contractors are bad... but sometimes, you can exercise the freedom of doing things your way... hiring a contractor, he will make most decisions for you... although in theory, one can agrue you are the boss, you can direct him to do it in your own way, but this is not practical and generally not the case...

anyway... to frame around pipes... you need to setup plates on the roof and bottom and stud around it... sometimes the plate on top is not at the roof, instead, it is kind of a stair type structure on the ceiling in order not to waste spaces... those are more tricky than regular walls, I suggest you work on those later once you got experience in building regular walls... creativity is the key on framing around odd objects... there is no one rule... it all base on what materials you have on hand and what imagination you can come up with.. it can be done many different ways and still be good...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Hi Kuiporng:

I am glad you mentioned that there is no hard and fast rule about framing around pipes or other objects. I do have a lot of creativity, so I will come up with something.

In regards to the insullation that is up against the cement blocks.
Is it ok if there is no vapor barrier betwee the cement blocks and the insullation, or should there be?

The concrete blocks are right up against the pink suff.

By the way, you have great information for me. I appreciate your knowledge on this subject.

Have you ever attended the Rona do it yourself workshops?
They have one on framing and drywall soon and I would like to attend.
Just wondering if they would be worthwhile?


Thanks.

yummy mummy


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Hi Yummy Mummy,

Nice to hear someone like me to DIY on basement renovation. I am doing mine and at the stage of about to put in drywall. I definitely like to share any experience I came across in the past 9 months. You can also find a lot of info in my other thread if you have the patient to read it... otherwise... I will also answer anything I saw in this thread as renovation is really my natural "interests" rather than "computing"...

As I said, in Toronto, the code does require a barrier between concrete wall and insulation, may be that is not the case in US...as I have applied for permit for my basement renovation. I therefore need to do so, have no choice... if you ask me why... I really do not know 100% but if the code said so... there must be scientific reason for that I am unaware of...

I still not change my opinion to recommend you to remove your existing insulation before installing your studs and plates.. it may look big job before you do it... but once you start... it is really piece of cake... and I myself think this is the "proper way"... I am glad I did it that way myself...

Regarding how to learn stuff.. I generally rely on : books, internets.. and personal visit a friend of my who did it and get some idea from him..etc... the knowledge is generally a composite product from different sources... I seldom see one source give you 100% recommendations that is the best for your case... but for me Books is very important as it is old fashion or traditional... but it is a fast referencing source ... expecially when you are at the plumbing stage...

at last feel free to ask me any questions...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> hi
> 
> the vapor barrier is not against the concrete wall.
> the soft pink stuff is right up against the concrete blocks and then the plastic is over it, which faces the inside of the room.
> ...


OK yummy,

You confused me. In an earlier Post you had written this:



yummy mummy said:


> it would be a lot of work. the insullation is against block walls, that are not painted.
> there is plastic over the insullation facing the *outside*.


So, I had understood this to mean that the insulation's vapor (plastic) barrier was facing 'outside'. Towards the outside of the living area.

If it is the other way around and the insulation fibers are against the concrete wall, then yes, absolutely YES...you do need to remove it, as Kuiporng wrote. It should be away from the concrete wall. There should be a space between it and the concrete...about 2", to allow for ventilation. The issue is not that huge amounts of water are going to come into the basement. The fact is that, concrete absorbs moisture. It is a porous material. Basements are damp by nature because of this. You don't want to place anything directly against concrete that can absorb moisture and can be damaged by it.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

No offence, AtlanticWBConst... but how can you get 2 inches spacing between insulation and the concrete wall..? that is a lot of room you are talking about... do you really mean 2 inches... or you mean somthing esle... I suspect...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Hi Atlantic.

If I removed it, then did the framing, and then put it back, would I just turn it around so that the vapor barrier is up against the concrete blocks, and then put another vapor barrier in front to cover the fibers?

thanks for the info.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

you are very sweet to answer all my questions.

The more I think about it the more I think I will remove the insullation.
I think in the end it may be even easier to frame.

Can you recommend any books that I may purchase.
I also like a quick reference with books (the old fashion way)

Thanks a bunch


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Kuiporng,

No offense taken. A 2" air circulation space is created by placing your bottom wall-plate's outside edge 2" away from the concrete wall. Then installing your R-13 insulation onto it (between the studs).

I understand your point about placing a moisture barrier of somekind between a basement concrete freezewall and a living area. If the basement is relatively dry and has been for a long time, that is optional for some homeowners. You see, if a home is built properly by code standards, you ALREADY have a heavy coat of petroleum based waterproofing on the exterior side of your freezewall...from grade level all the way down to the actual footing's surface. That means that NO additional ground moisture is getting in there. The only moisture that the concrete is picking up after that is just what it is aborbing from the inside air. Placing another coat over a wall that is already waterproofed is a waste of time, money and is overkill.

If the house has been wrapped up, water and moisture tight, and there are no moisture issues existing and no history of it as well, then there is no need to create moisture barrier chambers in it. A house NEEDS to be able to circulate air. It needs to 'breath', that is why you see soffit vents and ridge-vents. This allows warm humid air to leave the structure. 
That is the reason for the 2" space between the concrete and the living area. To allow for minor humid air to dissipate and evaporate when it mixes with warm drier air. 
If a basement has more than a normal level of moisture in it, then there it would be wise to take greater precautions and find out why it is overly damp.

When we are called in to either do a new basement remodel or repair a moisture damaged basement, the first thing we do is grab our moisture meter and check everything along with looking for tell-tale signs of H2O.
We also look into the history of the home. 
We recently did a home that the meter was going haywire on. It had supposedly been dried out and a company had come in and 'water-proofed it'. They used epoxy resins to inject and seal any cracks. They used waterproof paint sealant over all the walls. But, water started seaping through at the base of the floor and walls.
So, the point is, paint the walls all you want. If large amounts of water that is going to enter the basement....it WILL come through somewhere else. 
If the basement has normal humidity in it, like all basements do, then build in such a way as to allow it to 'ventilate' and 'circulate' moist air..... so that it may evaporate. 
It can actually cause larger mold problems when you create those 'Vapor-Moisture' chambers that the experts were doing for a while,....... and are now trying to get away from.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Yummy,

Yes, remove the insulation. If it is in good condition, then re-use it after you finish framing and running your electrical lines.
If you re-use it. Just place the insulation as you normally would with the paper facing towards the living space. Install it between your wood studs using staples. If U feel you want to add some kind of waterproofing between the new walls and the concrete walls, I would suggest sticking to waterproof paint. That is up to you. It is not a cheap product. Generally runs about $20 + per gallon. A gallon doesn't cover much, so buy it in a 5 gallon container.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I totally agree with you AtlanticWBConst. on most points you said, so I personally do not think put the plastic barrier against the concrete, then insulation is right... I do think circulation is important, in case there is minor water leak somehow... with plastic, there is no escape...

so my suggestion is to use those use on the roof black paper barrier, they are paper in nature but have some sort of chemical in it making it a bit more than paper... then insulation... I do think the code is not really to ask for cutting out concrete from insulation, i.e. no circulation, rather, it said no direct contact between insulation and concrete...

may be in US, where house are so big, 2" gap is acceptable, but not here in Toronto, when space are gold... 2" means a lot of money here... In addition, if you are 2" apart, how do you keep the insulation from falling towards the concrete?

AltanticWBConst is right about the paint being expensive, and a lot of painting work, so that is why I used the paper again, they are 1/5 the cost, and no work, easy to put up at no time, and it passed the inspection here...

For book recommendation, there is one I bought, it is called somthing like basement renovation, build like a pro..etc.
it use very traditional way of doing it, in many cases I didn't follow his advice... but it has its value...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

kuiporng

I have never hear of this paper that I would put up against the concrete blocks.

What is it called?

Where do you get it and how is it put on?

Therefore, after I put this paper on, I re-install the insullation with the pink fibre touching this paper against the wall and the plastic facing the inside room?


Thanks again

(Studpid questions, but I am a real newbie at this.)


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Yummy,

He is referring to Roofing Felt (Black Tar paper) Water proof. It is literally a heavy paper impregnated with tar to create waterproofing abilities. It comes in various lengths, but most commonly in 3 foot long black rolls. It is used for roofing: Placed over bare roof exterior sheathing prior to attaching roof shingles onto it. 
It is there so that if, any water were to penetrate the 1st layer of roofing shingles, the tar paper adds another level of water-proofing protection. 
FWIW, we have never seen it used in the way it has been recommended in this thread... (over Basement Walls).


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I bought in from HD at $24 Canadian a big roll, I used 2 rolls for my 1000 sq. ft. basement, it has water proofing effect, but not completely, it will not substain heavy water load... I don't know if this is the type AtlanticWBConst referring to, probably, but may be not, you know they have those thick heavy duty type, I am not using those, the one I am using is very thin and flessible...

Anyhow, to put it on is very simple, at the top of your wall, there are wood, just staple it on, or you can use small wood blocks to fit it in.. the paper is very steady, once put on,it won't fall, it is not like plastic flying in the air...

your other understanding in installation is correct...

hope this explanation help


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

KUIPORNG said:


> I bought in from HD at $24 Canadian a big roll, I used 2 rolls for my 1000 sq. ft. basement, it has water proofing effect, but not completely, it will not substain heavy water load... I don't know if this is the type AtlanticWBConst referring to, probably, but may be not, you know they have those thick heavy duty type, I am not using those, the one I am using is very thin and flessible...
> 
> Anyhow, to put it on is very simple, at the top of your wall, there are wood, just staple it on, or you can use small wood blocks to fit it in.. the paper is very steady, once put on,it won't fall, it is not like plastic flying in the air...
> 
> ...


Kuiporng,

It sounds like you used the thinner '15 pound' roofing felt rather than the heavier '30 pound' type.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Hi Atlantic and Kuiporng

Atlantic: I don't have paper on one side of my insullation.
One side is plastic and the other side is just the pink fibers.

Also, if I touch this stuff when removing it, should I take some precautions with it? eg. gloves, breathing mask, etc.
Is it dangerous.

Thanks


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> Hi Atlantic and Kuiporng
> 
> Atlantic: I don't have paper on one side of my insullation.
> One side is plastic and the other side is just the pink fibers.
> ...


If it is a solid plastic covering, then that is the vapor barrier. That side (vapor barrier) is always to be faced towards the warm area (living space).

Precautions?
Yes. Fiberglass is an irritant to eyes, throat, respiratory system and to bare skin. However, it won't kill you. 

When we install it or handle it:

We like to supply workers with: 

1.) Latex or non latex gloves.
2.) Full goggles
3.) Proper safety level dust mask.
4.) Full fitting dispoable white coveralls with a hood. The ones used by painters. Covers from head to foot.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

AtlanticWBConst probably be right.... I, however, break all the rule... just sometimes ware gloves... but a respiratory mask definitely a good idea... since I only pop in to work on my basement 20 to 30 minutes a day... I didn't want to go through 10 minutes the exercise of putting on/off clothings..

don't believe you can retain 100% the insulation you are tearing off... you should only get 50% back at most, and don't bother reuse the plastic sheets... it better get new ones as they are cheap... and remember the insulation you got is thinner than it come as when you tear off , you will lose 50%, those sticking on the plastic sheets... use them to fill in odd places when you finish, you still need to buy new insulation for the easy to install area... don't be cheap on insulation... it save you gas bill...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Atlantic:

I'm afraid to remove it now. Sounds dangerous.
I also will be working on it only for short periods of time in the day.
I also have children (13 and 10). 

I guess I will have to cover it when they may be in basement.

But ultimately I will take the precautions that you suggested.
Must think safety first.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Kuiporng:

thanks for the insight about the insullation and needing more.

I will have to purchase more.



thanks


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Yummy,

Don't worry about the insulation 'hurting' you. It won't damage your health. It's just that the small fibers go everywhere and are an irritant.....it's the itchy fibers.

A point about insulation: DO NOT flatten or condense it. That squashes the air cell fibers. Those cells are what keep the warm air 'in' the living space. When it is flattened, condensed, squashed.....this damages it's insulation abilities.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

atlantic:

you are so full of knowledge. I thank you for your time and valuable information.

You sound quite professional and definitely know what you are doing.

If the insullation seems squashed and flat, can I poof it out again with my hands? 

Does that work.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Yes, you want it to be at it's 'expanded' point.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I have a question about electric screwdrivers.
Should I purchase one so it would make my work easier when putting in the 2X4s? .....as opposed to using a regular screwdriver.

Is this what would make my work easier and faster, or a drill; but I thought that drills were just for making holes or do they have different bits that I can add to put in screws?

Will this also work for putting screws into concrete?

Would you recommend any one in particular, that would not be too expensive?



Thanks a bunch.......


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> I have a question about electric screwdrivers.
> Should I purchase one so it would make my work easier when putting in the 2X4s? .....as opposed to using a regular screwdriver.?


Don't waste your money. These are really only for light duty...cover plates, small screws, etc...



yummy mummy said:


> Is this what would make my work easier and faster, or a drill;
> ?


For the value, I would suggest buying a corded Power drill. 
You could purchase a cordless drill, but you will end up spending alot for a decent model. Cheap cordless versions don't stand up to regular use and don't hold a charge long. That is why I suggest a decent corded power drill.
However, the long term: You will get alot more practical use out of a cordless drill.



yummy mummy said:


> but I thought that drills were just for making holes or do they have different bits that I can add to put in screws?


Yes, You can purchase a quick-change bit holder and philips head bits or really any kind of 'bit' imaginable.



yummy mummy said:


> Will this also work for putting screws into concrete?


Not really. Regular power drills aren't made to drill into really dense material like concrete. You can burn out the motor. 
They make what is called a 'hammer' drill for that. It's a larger, heavier (Heavy duty) drill that has more torque and force for drilling into cement, stone, mortar.



yummy mummy said:


> Would you recommend any one in particular, that would not be too expensive??


Ooohhh, you'd have to ask that question. I'm kind of sold on the known names in the industry(Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch, Hilti....) Unfortunately, these cost a little more. But, they do last much longer and take a 'beating' better than the inexpensive models.

However, the needs that you put on tools are not going to be as demanding as ours.

What might be in your price range and fit your needs:

Black & Decker, Ryobi or Skil. Check out their 'cordless' and their 'corded' models. Some come with tool attachements and bits already in the box.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

One more to add, if you use wood plates and studs, you cannot drill in screws, you have to use nails...

but if you use steel plates and wood studs... you can use screws for most of the stuff... and this is the easiest method, I experienced...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

kuiporng

My home was renovated about 3 years ago, and I noticed that they used screws in all the stud work that they did.

I thought that screws is what you are suppose to use for wood studs/.
Am I wrong?

Do I have to get my hammer out?
I do have one of those.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

screws for wood to wood, is not as strong as nails... especially 45 degree... people use nail gun generally... your other job, I don't know why they do that... probably to save labour or they don't have a nail gun...

for your information, why use wood plates... use steel plates, you will find the job 2 times easier, as you don't need to do 45 degree screws, instead, straight screw in...

unless you are building load baring walls...which is rarely for basement renovation...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

kuiporng

steel plates?
do you mean steel studs?
how would you attach drywall to these steel studs?
using screws for steel?

how would I cut steel? 

did you use only steel studs for your basement?
how about when I need to cover my vents, did you also use steel for them.

I just figured it would be easier with wood because you can cut it to any size you want?


Thanks for your help.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I went with steel studs and steel plates for 40% of my basement, the other 60% is wood studs and steel plates later when I discovered that was the best way....

I mean wood studs on steel plate... I know no body talked about that combination, but it is the best way of building no-baring walls.. easy, strong...etc.

Also, please read the other thread of mine "Basement Question" that record the whole cycle of my project, make sure you read to the end though as there is change opinion over the course of my experience.... at the last message, there is also pictures of what I recently finished to...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

thanks kuiporng

I will check your threads, and let you know.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Yummy,

We do alot of steel framing in the commercial jobs we do.

Kuiporng is right about the fact that screws don't have the sheer strength of nails...infact nails are code for structural wood framing, not screws. 

BUT, we are not talking about you building structural framing. You are going to build partition walls. Your walls are not holding up a second floor or weight bearing loads of ANY kind. So there is not a need for sheer strength in your fasteners. So, YES, you can use screws for what you want to do.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Yummy, 

We have been framing with steel and wood for over 20 years in both commercial and residential applications.

My suggestion: Stay away from using steel studs. There is a larger learning curve with steel framing than wood. 
Framing in steel requires knowledge of sheetrocking, since it is the sheetrock that actually gives the steel framing it's ridgidity. So there are alot of intricacies involved with doing it properly.
(Example: Where 2 walls meet perpendicularly, you should leave a space for the sheetrock to 'slide' through. That means you are supposed to attach the top and bottom plates. However, you need to cut out a space in the corners of the top and bottom plates that is 1/8" larger than the width of the sheetrock you are using. Then, when you are sheetrocking, you are supposed to slide the sheetrock through that space and screw it from behind, into the other wall's steel corner, to 'inter-lock' the 2 walls together....easy!!, doesn't that make perfect sense? ....um, you see my point...)

Stick to 'wood on wood' using screws. You will be much happier you did.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Atlantic:

My inclination is to stick with wood, as I have been doing some research on steel studs and as you mentioned there are other factors to consider when using them.

I have worked with wood before, so I am somewhat familiar with wood and not steel.
I certainly agree that there would definitely be a bigger learning curve to steel studs. (and I certainly am a novice at this and I don't think I need any more novelty).

I think I will stop researching steel studs and pursue wood.


thanks for the help


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

kuiporng

Glad to hear that the steel worked out for you, but you are probably a lot better at do it yourself than me.

I think I will stick with the wood for now.

(But you never know, I may try it as I go along).

thanks kuiporng


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I agree with wood studs... but just steel plates... with that you don't need to do toe nailing or toe screwing in your case ....

attached steel plates to top and bottom is as easy if not easier than attach wood plates to top and botoom...


but when you are talking about putting wood studs onto the steel plate vs wood plates, it is comparing night and day... steel plates is at least 2 times easier and more flessible....etc...

as steel plate is a U shape, it clamp the wood stud by nature of its shape.... hope you get it...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Kuiporng,

Yes, your idea of steel bottom and top plates with wood studs does makes sense. That would make a job easier to a DIYer.

However....you had all that concern about basement moisture.
Yet, you used steel bottom plates in your basement. 
I'm surprised, because, Steel plates, though lightly zinc-coated, will rust....

?

(That is why framing in residential home basements is not steel, but Pressure Treated Lumber for bottom plates)


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

In Canada Code, you need a barrier between concrete and bottom plate, or use chemical treated lumber for bottom plate... so for steel plate you need a barrier, HD selling those garbage bag type plastic strips for that... in my case, as I install flooring (egg carboard type plastics plus OSB board) so I don't need those...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Kuiporng,



KUIPORNG said:


> HD selling those garbage bag type plastic strips for that...


-You lost me, I have no idea what this is? 



KUIPORNG said:


> in my case, as I install flooring (egg carboard type plastics plus OSB board) so I don't need those...


- Are you talking about 'Dri-core' flooring?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Actually the HD selling those foam type material put under the plate for people want to use regular 2x4 for plate rather than pressure treated lumber... but cheap builder use black garbage bag type plastic sheet, you can even make it yourself with regular garbage bag...

for my case, the idea is same as Dricore but not Dricore due to the fact that it's expensive... I used plastic black sheet thick one (not flat, use for external wall water proofing) selling at HD as underlayment then OSB boards...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

KUIPORNG said:


> Actually the HD selling those foam type material put under the plate for people want to use regular 2x4 for plate rather than pressure treated lumber...


You must be referring to sill-foam.



KUIPORNG said:


> but cheap builder use black garbage bag type plastic sheet, you can even make it yourself with regular garbage bag......
> for my case, the idea is same as Dricore but not Dri-core due to the fact that it's expensive... I used plastic black sheet thick one (not flat, use for external wall water proofing) selling at HD as underlayment then OSB boards...


Wow, I guess you really are a DIYer...

The point with using dri-core is not just the 'vapor-barrier' raised egg-carton plastic underside, but that the area underneath creates an air chamber for moisture to dry out and for insulating purposes. I believe they estimate that the surface of their material is about 7-10 degrees warmer. I have used it on alot of basements as a slightly more expensive option for the homeowner, over poly and 3/4" Floor sheathing.

Question: How did you attach your 1/2" OSB to the concrete floor?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I tapcon it down to concret OSB + the thick plastic sheet... yes I stress the sheet is not flat, for the purpose of air circulation...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Kuiporng:

I finally had a chance to see your pictures.
Amazing, I hope mine will look as good as yours looks.

I noticed that you have some type of black paper on the wall behind the studs.

I remember you mentioning that it is some sort of paper to prevent water?
Can you explain further what that may be.

In my basement there are a couple of areas that I do have water that comes in and the wall is damp, when there is a lot of rain.

Do I need to put this everywhere or just where the water comes from?


Also, you mention that the furnace room has to have a "return vent" 
what is that?.

Presently, my furnace is against a wall that has a window right beside it. My whole basement presently is all open and I plan to keep it that way.


What I plan to do is to put a wall around it so that I won't see it in the middle of the room.

(I plan to have pretty much open concept area, and I only want to cover the furnace)

Do I have to consider other things before I frame around it?

I guess I have to frame around it so that if there is any problem I will be able to service the furnace and hot water tank?


I would appreciate any information that you or anyone can give me regarding this.

Hi Atlantic---do you have any advice for me also.



Yummy Mummy


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> I noticed that you have some type of black paper on the wall behind the studs.
> I remember you mentioning that it is some sort of paper to prevent water? Can you explain further what that may be.
> In my basement there are a couple of areas that I do have water that comes in and the wall is damp, when there is a lot of rain.
> Do I need to put this everywhere or just where the water comes from?


Yummy,
That was a vapor barrier that he had put up. The key point here is that it is for moisture vapors...Airborne moisture. 
If you are having water entering your basement, even if it's only during rain, you need to have that taken care of. A vapor barrier will not stop water directly penetrating into a basement. Sometimes you may have to bring in a company that specializes in this. The way this done, is to inject concrete epoxy into any areas, like cracks, where the water may be coming through. After this, you cover the freeze wall with a waterproofing compound, like Drylock. If it is only coming through in a few areas, you can try to use hydraulic cement to 'block' it up. Just realize that this is not a quick fix. You will have to do your repairs and monitor the area during rainstorms to see if the water is finding another point to penetrate. You see, when the water pressure builds up, it will seek other weaker points to come through because you blocked up the previous leakage points.



yummy mummy said:


> Also, you mention that the furnace room has to have a "return vent"
> what is that?. Presently, my furnace is against a wall that has a window right beside it. My whole basement presently is all open and I plan to keep it that way.
> What I plan to do is to put a wall around it so that I won't see it in the middle of the room.
> (I plan to have pretty much open concept area, and I only want to cover the furnace)
> ...


What all that means is that, because you plan on enclosing the furnace, by code, you must have a vent of some kind that is connected into the living space from the area of the enclosed furnace. This can even be a louvered door or a large vent installed in the wall itself. You can place these on a side that is not visible from the rest of the basement area.
Additionally, In my area it is required by code that there be, what is called a ‘fresh-air’ intake. That means that there must be a vent leading to the exterior of your home. I do not know if this is code for your area. But, it might be something for you to look into.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

Thanks for the info Atlantic.

Your explanations are wonderful. You make them very clear so that a Newbie like me understands them. Thanks.

I now realize that I do have to take care of the water problem. 
It is not a big problem. Only 2 places.
What I would like to do, is what you suggested and try to stop it from the inside by some of your suggestions as opposed to doing it from the outside.

What I plan on putting on the floor would be ceramic tiles so that if I did have any water coming in then it would not damage any flooring.
What is your opinion on this?

My home use to be a 2 bedroom bungalow, which 3 years ago, I gutted it out and added a second floor.

I did not dig foundations. So the basement still have the original blocks and cement floor and joists. The original home was built in l942.
I had lived in the home for 10 years before doing the renovation/addition, and never once had any water in the basement.
Yes, the basement was damp but never any water.

After the new addition/ renovation that is when the water started to come in.
But only in 2 small places during rain.

I really would love it if I could get away with something other than doing an extensive and expensive job.

Regarding the furnace area. What I plan to do is just to build some walls so that I don't see it. I will have a door opening, so that I can get into it for servicing, etc. (The water tank is there also).

Would that pose a problem just puting some walls around it.
The contractor ran the heating vents, which are in the ceiling running along the joists, and there are 3 vents in the area for heat to come out of in the ceiling.

Thanks for your wonderful info. and your guidance.


yummy


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> What I plan on putting on the floor would be ceramic tiles so that if I did have any water coming in then it would not damage any flooring.
> What is your opinion on this?


Sounds like a good plan.



yummy mummy said:


> ....the basement was damp but never any water.
> After the new addition/ renovation that is when the water started to come in. But only in 2 small places during rain.
> I really would love it if I could get away with something other than doing an extensive and expensive job.


I have used hydraulic cement on many occasions as the first step 'effort' to stop minor incoming water in basement freeze walls. Every time, it has worked and stopped the water. This hydraulic cement can be purchased in a small container at H.D. 
Mix it with water to a paste-like consistency. This can be mixed manually with anything on hand as a stirrer. Be careful, it dries FAST. So get the job done quickly. Squash it right into the areas. I would suggest you use the best tools you have to do this....your hands. Put some heavy duty gloves on that are resistant to cement compounds.



yummy mummy said:


> Regarding the furnace area. What I plan to do is just to build some walls so that I don't see it. I will have a door opening, so that I can get into it for servicing, etc. (The water tank is there also).
> Would that pose a problem just putting some walls around it.


No, building the walls around your furnace or heating unit would be no problem. (You would want to leave some room around the heating unit for service and repair access, as well as room to change out the water heater and it's connections)



yummy mummy said:


> The contractor ran the heating vents, which are in the ceiling running along the joists, and there are 3 vents in the area for heat to come out of in the ceiling.


Y.M., the ventilation we are talking about has nothing to do with the system's attached intake vents, themselves, that service your home.

What you need is a separate vent, or vents, or a louvered door…the key is to have air access. When you build the walls, you are essentially enclosing the system. The system, then, has also been shut-off from the home’s existing air. 
You see, some furnaces pull the air they need directly from the house while others have a direct ‘fresh-air’ vent to the outside of your home. Either way, they need access to air.

OK, this is where it gets technical: 
By local code (Here in the U.S.) , there is supposed to be at least 50 cubic feet of air space around the heating unit (as ventilation) - for each 1000 BTU’s of fuel input (for the average gravity air fed system)
In such a basic-average home system, an air access vent opening should be sized at 1 sq. inch per 1,000 BTUs of fuel input. 
There should be at least two openings to unobstructed air access. 
One in the upper 12 inches of the room (Connecting the furnace ‘room’ to the rest of your finished basement) and one located 12 inches off the floor (Connecting the same furnace ‘room’ to the rest of your finished basement) Often the best way to accommodate all of these technical requirements is to do this:

1.) Install two (2) 16”x16” vents in the newly constructed walls surrounding your furnace. One vent placed at floor height and one place at approximate ceiling height. 

OR

2.) Just install a louvered access door and your covered completely.
(This is what is normally done)


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Atlantic:

When the time comes I will take your suggestion and install 2 vents as you have suggested, and a door.

I also will check our code, (I live in Canada) and see what would be required.

I attended a seminar at Rona Building Centre today on framing and drywalling a basement and they have explained about hydraulic cement.
I may go that route when the time comes.

Thanks a bunch, 
you're great!!!!!


yummy


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

Today I attended a workshop on framing and he suggested that I put a vapor barrier against the cement blocks, then the insullation and then another vapor barrier, and then the drywall.

Do I need to do this?
Two vapor barriers-one on either side of the insullation?



Thanks again


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> When the time comes I will take your suggestion and install 2 vents as you have suggested, and a door.
> yummy


Y.M., You do not have to do both. It's is one or the other. What I meant was that it is easiest and most convenient to just install a lovered door. Installing a louvered access door covers the requirements.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> Today I attended a workshop on framing and he suggested that I put a vapor barrier against the cement blocks, then the insullation and then another vapor barrier, and then the drywall.
> Do I need to do this?
> Two vapor barriers-one on either side of the insullation?
> Thanks again


This question has 2 answers to it. Yes and No.

Since it is not appropriate to directly post information from another source on the internet because of copywrite laws, I will direct you to 'Wikipedia' on the internet. Look under: "Vapor Barriers". In this section, go to the very last paragraph on the Vapor Barriers page. The paragraph starts off with: "If you finish your dry basement....." and ends before 'helpful links'.
If you are unable to find this information I am directing you to, PM me (Private message me on this site) and I will send the link to you.

Also, in the article...they speak of a drain plane. This is essentially a 2" space between the studs and the concrete wall. I had mentioned this to you in an earlier post.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Sorry I didn't read message in the weekend... only during weekdays...

anyhow... water problem has to fix 100% before attempt on renovation on basement...

the black paper is just to fulfill the code... it is not really try to waterproof the basement... it must has it's reason... but I do not know 100%...

furnance room need two things: combustion air and return air. combustion air can be eaily taken care either by opening vent from the wall or use vent door(don't know how to name those)... return air you need to bring it from the floor level up and from the open area...

good lucks... like Atlantic said... fix 100% water leaking first before renovation... even it leak a little bit... should fix it first...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

I will look up that site and let you know.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

Thanks for the info. kuiporng

I will definitely have to take care of the leak first before anything else.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I just realized you add a second floor... basement renovation to you then should be a much smaller project... I suppose you hire company to do that... if you can add a second floor yourself... you should know a lot for basement renovation... if you intend to apply for permit... you may need to open your heat vent at the floor level as that is a requirement for us in Markham area... I did that myself and didn't find it too difficult... it gives you advantageous as heat going from lower to higher level.. keep your basement warmer I meant...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

I did contact the contractor that did my house just to see if I could have him do it.

And what I told him I wanted was to have the basement studed and drywalled. No flooring, no painting, no trim ( I would do all that myself) and he quoted me $9,000 for that. The total area to be covered with drywall including the ceiling would be 1900 square feet.

I think this is too expensive, for just studs against the perimeter of the basement and drywall, including just the taping....nothing else. 
I did not want any plumbing or electrical done.
I still think $9,000 is too expensive. (It's not that I don't have the $9,000, it just seems a little too expensive for what I wanted to do)
I guess maybe it is just not worth his time. 

So, I am determined to do it myself.

The heating vents are in the ceiling and I think I will keep them there because I don't know how to do that stuff.
And basically I plan to use the basement as a very large play room for the kids, with a TV, computer, etc. Not to sleep in or anything like that.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

I did find the information in wikipedia.
I did read the section that you referred me to.

What I gather is that I don't really need two vapor barriers?
One between the drywall and insullation will probably suffice?

Did I understand that correctly?


thanks for that link, was informative.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I think it is ok not to have plumbing done if you don't need it... but for lighting, you may want to considered it... as a bright basement is really important for it to be consider nice play area... it is not difficult to do the electrical... but it takes time... for the heat... I don't know the difference... but it is not difficult to bring it down either... all you need is to find a good spots to bring down... but I agree with you... even contractor don't do that... just the city requires me to do... I was surprised in the beginning and a bit scare of the work as well... but once start it... it is not difficult and rather quite fast to do...

I just realized you talked about total "covered" area... I thought you meant your basement area is 1900sqft... that is quite large... for total cover area 1900 sq ft... I really do not know how much it is to compare ... I left this to other people to comment...


don't be surprise when you do it yourself it will somehow cost more for you in materials as you do it yourself, you normally go for extra in materials like I do for various things... but then you get a better end product... I visited some people's basement which can tell right away it is cheaply done.... I would rather not doing it than finish somthing which is not nice and comfy...anyhow.....


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> I did find the information in wikipedia.
> I did read the section that you referred me to.
> 
> What I gather is that I don't really need two vapor barriers?
> ...


YES, you read correctly. :thumbsup:


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Y.M.,

My advice: Take a whack at doing it yourself.

$9,000.00 is on the high end. If he is a builder, he is used to doing large jobs (Building entire homes and additions = $$$), So he is in it for a good profit. That price he gave you has a decent sized profit and expense coverage worked into it.

You could get a lower price. However, speaking from what I have seen all too often when it comes to finishing a basement: the problem is that there are TOO MANY hacks out there that will give you a lower price and do a horrible job. 
Again, Give it a try. Worse case scenario is that you start it, get frustrated and have to go out and find someone to finish it. That just means that you will get a lower price since you will have some of the materials there and part of the work already done.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

Thanks for the advise Atlantic:

I am definitely going to try it myself. 
I am somewhat mechanically inclined and I can read instructions pretty well. 

(My husband is not mechanically inclined, --(he has a masters degree in philosophy- very abstract thinking, not mechanically inclined.)
Mind you, I can do abstract thinking also, I have degree in psychology, (sure does not help me when trying to do framing (lol) but I also have a mechanical mind.

So, therefore, I will tackle it myself.
I did tell the contractor that I will end up teaching him a few things as I am learning the "proper way" of doing things, from Atlantic and Kuiporng.

Actually, I already found out that he did not include a king and jack stud in the doorways, from what I remember when he did my home.

Thanks a bunch 

And I will keep you informed, of my slow process in renovating my basement.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

Thanks for the advice.

And I agree with you when you say that I can do a better job than the contractor!

Also, I will add some lighting in the basement. I do have 3 small windows but I could use some pot lighting throughout.

But I don't think I will do the electrical myself. I have a friend that will do that for me.
As to plumbing, I only really need to move the washer over about 5 feet. That is really about it.

Otherwise, it is pretty straight forward. Only need to cover furnace, that is it.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

For a lady to tackle a basement project... I really amazed... I hope your husband will be your assistant though... to give you confident... I also never do renovation before... and I am so far so good..... doing it slow has an advantage, many things you can think it over many time before doing it... when you are at bed... taking shower...etc... you can have many good ideas before implementing... Good luck and enjoy the project... on the other hand, friend of mine said I will give up in the middle as he saw many people do... so I think the difference is really if one has the interests in what he/she is doing... I hope you do...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

My basement is probably as big as yours.

The total is l900 square feet, including the ceiling to be drywalled , so the floor space is approximately l000 square feet. It is not very big.

My house is 2100 square feet, (lst floor and second floor and then another l000 for the basement.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

Thanks for the advice.

I told my husband, whether he likes it or not, he has to help me lift the drywall!
He said he will help me whenever I need help.
(But I will definitely be the boss and organizer of the project. (lol).


You are right when you say that taking your time is a good idea, as I do think about it over and over again before deciding what to do. 

And also you learn a lot, as you go.


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

A quick joke for you all....

What do you call a MILF (mother i'd like to  ) in England? :whistling2:


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*harleysilo*

ok, what?


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

A "Yummy Mummy".:laughing:


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*harleysilo*

good one. 

my husband agrees. He says I am yummy.

hopefully he will feel the same when I ask him to lift drywall to the ceiling!

:laughing:


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

Thank you, Thank you very much! I'll be here all day everyday from 8:00-5:00......


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Atlantic or Kuiporng or whoever will answer my stupid question.


After putting in the top plate when framing, how will I know that when I put in the bottom plate that it will be parralel to the top one?

(Stupid question but I have never done this before)

I would imagine that I would need to put a plumb line from the top edge and let it fall and them mark it?

Am I right? Or is there some other trick of the trade that I don't know?


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## harleysilo (Jun 19, 2006)

That is a perfect way to do it. It helps to have two people, one to hold the plumb bob string, one to slow it down and mark the floor and the move onto the next mark.

If you do it by yourself, use a staple gun and staple the string to the edge of top plate so plumb just misses the floor, climb down, steady plumb and then mark, and move to next one.....

Oh, a plumb bob thingy looks like a miniture ice cream cone, just made out of brass, you unscrew the top thumb screw, insert a length of string, tie a overhand knot so it won't pull out, and then re-insert the thumb screw....Most any string will do, I like the kind people use on construction sites to pull lines with....


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

The way I did it, I draw a line using marker on the floor along the whole length of wall to ensure continuation of the wall, do the bottom plate first, as I use metal plates, it is easier, when done the bottom plate, then use a telescope stick, or a wood stud a bit higher then the height of the wall, to put the top plate in position, then put in a wood stud and use a level to make sure the top plate and bottom plate are level, with a 4 ft level... then screw the top plate... I did this myself without help... this is another reason I used metal plates as it work so much easier as metal plate is lighter, and you will not worry about falling down and hitting your head... than the heavy wood plates, if you insist to use wood plate, still use metal plate for the top plate, it will work very easy.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> Atlantic or Kuiporng or whoever will answer my stupid question.
> 
> 
> After putting in the top plate when framing, how will I know that when I put in the bottom plate that it will be parralel to the top one?
> ...


This is the quickest way and does not require 2 people to do:

*How to level the bottom and top of walls:*
#10) Cut a STRAIGHT piece of 2x4 to just over the length of your floor to ceiling height. You will use this as a straight edge to place your level against to mark up where your top plate will be on the ceiling. Just hold the straight 2x4 against one side of the bottom plate (or the mark on the floor where your bottom plate will be going). Place a 4’ level or longer level’ against it. (we prefer to use a 6’ level for this) Then line it up to the ceiling and make a mark on the joist or strapping for the matching edge of your top plate. 

You could also do it the other way around...starting with the top plate and then leveling down to the bottom plate. I do not suggest that you do it that way. You should start with the bottom plate first. Why? 
By laying out and marking your walls on the floor first, you will be able to align all your walls more accurately. This includes being able to make sure that your corners are square. This is much easier to do on the floor, and then match the top plates to it. When you are going along and making your marks on the floor...where your walls will be, make sure that you look up to see if there will be any obstructions in the ceiling locations where each corresponding top plate will be going on.

Do this at one end, of the length of the bottom plate. And then at the other end of the bottom plate. Laying out this way for each length of wall.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

AtlanticWBConst approach is somewhat similar to what I suggest, except I personally do not like to do a lot of marking... I prefer doing it as it goes... it just make me dessie with all those markings....


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Can you believe it, I understand all of the suggestions.

I probably will try them all and see which one works best for me.



(My husband said that he will help me, or I have threatened him that I would no longer be a "yummy mummy". :laughing:


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

my suggestion will probably only work for metal plates (bottom and top) because there is no fastering U-Shape attribute with wood, with out this, you cannot move the plates easily together with the studs before tighting the stud onto the plates... 

if you use wood plates, Atlantic suggestion seems the best...


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> (My husband said that he will help me, or I have threatened him that I would no longer be a "yummy mummy". :laughing:


The power of women...



"Behind every great man....... 

is a woman telling him what to do...."


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Atlantic*

You are definitely right.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

My drill does not allow me to put screws in concrete for my bottom plate.

I would like to know how I can get around this for my bottom plate as I really don't want to purchase one for concrete.
I was told that if I use a concrete bit that it will burn.

Can I nail the bottom plate down with concrete nails?
Or is there anything else that I can use to put in the bottom plate?



Thanks a bunch.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

you need a hammer drill.. there is no way to get around this... I got mine black and decker corded at Canadian Tire around $60.00 Canadian Dollars... It is not the best quality one in the market like Dewalt... but for one basement renovation, it survives it so far... and Canadian Tire offer 3 years replacement guarantee...

nailing is not a good option... you need to purchase those bullets and special nails... and special hammer... also quite expensive I believed... also sometimes bullets shoot not that well which can break the concrete surface making those small chips in your way, making floor not level unless you clean up it... it is considered a quick and dirty way of doing it, in my opinion, contractor like to use this approach as it requires minimum effort as the bullet do the force for them whereas screwing requires muscles and sweats... but it is cleaness...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

thanks for the advice.

Can you tell me what Tap Con is?
Does this have something to do with concrete?

Also, I think I have to buy more vapor barrier.
Is there a certain number that I have to purchase?
And is one better than the other?


thanks for the advice.

I really don't want to purchase another tool for the concrete as I will never need it again and it is only for the floor part of my renovation.

There must be something else I can do?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

tapcon is the screws you used to drive in the plate... after you drill the holes...which I bought a lot as well... I know they are quite expensive... I really don't know what else you can do ... unless you use those bullet nails... 

vapour barrier are being sell at the same axiel selling insulation they come in rolls of 500 sq. ft, 1000 sq. ft.. 1500 sq. ft ... I only see one type selling at HD which I got recently. 

I totally understand your concern about not buying the tools... but basement renovation indeed quite a costly project... I have stop my bookkeeping... but I just feel everything is expensive... now they said a good renovated basement cost $30,000 if done by contractor... I would think for home owner will be $10,000...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng or Atlantic*

Is there any thickness for the vapor barrier that I have to buy or are they one standard thickness?

Can I glue down the bottom plate only with construction adhesive?
Will that work?


How about if I just get concrete nails and hammer them down with a hammer?
How difficult would that be?

I just will use a lot of sweat.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I think there is requirement on thickness, but HD sells those together with insulation and they are pretty thick... I just bought it... didn't find out the spec like you want to... I don't believe I can make a mistake on that and hopes inspector won't say I bought the wrong type... I wouldn't just glue the plate to floor... it is just not enough strength in my opinion... use hammer and to nail down the concrete nail is possible in theory, but not practical in my opinion... too much to do with too much strength and too difficult too... I just spent $30 on a stapler today with the similar reason you are struggling with "only used it for one time"... but if you think about it, even you only used it for one time, the driller probably drill close to hundred holes... in fact, my drill broke and I got replaced a new one from Canadian tire after using for a couple of weeks... the worn and torn on the equipments sometimes worth more than you thought...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

you know, you are right.
And besides, in the end, it will be a lot cheaper than having the contractor do it.
So, it looks like I will have to buy whatever I need.

Thanks for your advice.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Atlantic*

Atlantic: I would love your opinion on this also. 

Any further suggestions to Kuiporng's?


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## Hammatime (Oct 2, 2006)

I'm not sure where you are but, you should use a 4 mil thick plastic or thicker. As far as hammering the nails through the bottom plate into the floor, this is very difficult even for an experienced carpenter. See if you can rent a powder actuated gun to shoot the nails into the floor.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> Is there any thickness for the vapor barrier that I have to buy or are they one standard thickness?.


Yes there are different thicknesses. 4 mill to 6 mill is adequate. 
However, that is *only* if you use 'un-faced' insulation.

Y.M., remember that you do not want to 'sandwich' your insulation between 2 vapor barriers. You are better off to just use the paper faced insulation since the paper *is *the vapor barrier. If you use the paper faced insulation, DO NOT install a vapor barrier anywhere on your newly framed wall. (Paper faced is also much easier to install by stapling it) Also, the paper face (vapor barrier) has to face the warm side...living area.


yummy mummy said:


> Can I glue down the bottom plate only with construction adhesive? Will that work?


No, it will not work. Construction adhesive (glue) will not dry enough for you to do work, like attaching studs. It will move all over the place. Even if you let it dry, it can be ‘knocked’ out of position. You need to ‘fasten’ the bottom plate down.


yummy mummy said:


> How about if I just get concrete nails and hammer them down with a hammer? How difficult would that be? I just will use a lot of sweat.


Forget it, you will be in a world of pain and aggravation. Even with hardened concrete nails, you won’t have the hammer swinging skill or the strength to whack those suckers in.
My advice: Go down to HD. Buy a ‘powder actuated fastener’ that you strike with a hammer. I believe Remington makes one that is sold there. They cost about $20.00.
Purchase #3 and #4 caps (22 caliber charges) and the 2/½ to 3 inch ‘pins’ (Ceramic coated nails with orange plastic collars around them) these are all located in the same area of the store. 
Get some ear protection and …’go to town’ …..with that set up. Aside from the ‘bang’, it is the way to go. Much, Much, Much faster to use. Less expensive option too, than buying a hammer drill and tap-conning everything. 
You load these one at a time. They can only fire if you strike it with a hammer. Very safe. The trick is to keep the tool clean by wiping down with a ‘carbon’ cleaner every 50 shots or so. The ‘cleaner’ is the same as used on firearms for cleaning. Wall Mt. sells it in the sporting goods dept.
I don’t know what area you live in, but in the US, you can buy these anywhere. 
(We actually use the powder actuated guns…with triggers, they cost more, but do the same thing) In the construction industry, these 22 cal. tools are what is standard use by all contractors and carpenters for building walls in basements, onto concrete. I would not even think of framing off a basement without one. We keep one in all our work trucks. Very handy for attaching lumber to concrete.
Good Luck


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## MCCR (Oct 4, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> I did contact the contractor that did my house just to see if I could have him do it.
> 
> And what I told him I wanted was to have the basement studed and drywalled. No flooring, no painting, no trim ( I would do all that myself) and he quoted me $9,000 for that. The total area to be covered with drywall including the ceiling would be 1900 square feet.
> 
> ...


 
The materials for that would probably go around 1600-1800. Thats to cover lumber, insulation, drywall and taping (mudding) materials. It might be a little high for what you are asking him to do. I would put that at somewhere 5-6k For labor and materials ready for paint, trim and carpet. It varies depending on how many doors and what there is for soffits and other factors that may change pricing. There are some companies that charge a basic price of 25$ per sqft to finish completely which quick math is 25k for your size basement.


Something else would be electrical. Is there any lights or outlets. this would also add to price which then gets very close to your 9k quote. Most electricians will be in the ball park of 2-3$ per sqft. there is 3k right there for electrical. It depends on how fancy you get but basics you could get it done around 1500-2000.

I personally for a BASIC basement finishing job that size would go somewhere around 12K-15k finished ready to use. 

As far as fastening your sill plates i would recommend as atlantic did and buy the remington powder actuated fastener for 40-50$ that goes with a hammer. you should be able to get all the coated nails and shots with the tool for around 70$.

For DIY his leveling technique is probably the best. In the field i use a Pocket laser or spot laser. It shoots a point from the floor to the cieling for a plumb mark. More than you need and ther around 100$ for a good one but i think you can get one for around 60$ at the Home Depot.

Dont for get if you do enlist a contractor your paying for there expertise and time it would take to finish righ would be much shorter than DIY. I am not discouraging DIY since there is not one person on this planet that has not tried some Home improvment project on there own without some failure. I actually encourage it. It helps people see why and how contractors charge what they charge for quality work.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

Thanks for your suggestions:

I will go and purchase some fastners for concrete as you suggested and hopefully that will work.

As for the insullation,- I plan on reusing as much as I can the one that is already there now. I will try and "poof" it out if I can, and will purchase additional if I need to.

As for the vapor barrier--I will put the insullation against the concrete blocks (it has no paper on it presently) and then put the plastic vapor barrier on the warm side of the room that I will be using.


I plan on starting this next week.

(I told my husband I want a tool belt for Christmas) :laughing:


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

MCCR said:


> The materials for that would probably go around 1600-1800. Thats to cover lumber, insulation, drywall and taping (mudding) materials. It might be a little high for what you are asking him to do. I would put that at somewhere 5-6k For labor and materials ready for paint, trim and carpet. It varies depending on how many doors and what there is for soffits and other factors that may change pricing. There are some companies that charge a basic price of 25$ per sqft to finish completely which quick math is 25k for your size basement.
> 
> 
> Something else would be electrical. Is there any lights or outlets. this would also add to price which then gets very close to your 9k quote. Most electricians will be in the ball park of 2-3$ per sqft. there is 3k right there for electrical. It depends on how fancy you get but basics you could get it done around 1500-2000.
> ...


In my area .... the cost of contractor finished basements (including electrical, heating source, flooring and paint) on the 'average sized' home's foot print start at $20,000 and easily go up to $30,000 (larger homes). Add a basic bathroom on top of that for $10K -$12K. 
(Debt - it is the american way of life)


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## MCCR (Oct 4, 2006)

Where in New England are you located Atlantic?


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

MCCR said:


> Where in New England are you located Atlantic?


 
Boston area and around Boston....


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

I have started with framing my first wall in my basement.

There is a pipe right in the corner, all the way along the entire wall, where I have to install my top plate.
It is approx. 1 1/2 to 2 inches in diameter.

Should I just put the top plate in front of it, which would mean that I would be leaving approximate 1 1/2 to 2 inches away from the block wall before I start my stud work?

Or is there something else that I should do?
I don't really mind losing that amount of space on this wall.


Also, when the studs are put 16 inches on center, does that mean that there is exactly a 16 inch opening between one stud and the other?


Thanks a lot, you have been an immense amount of help for me.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> There is a pipe right in the corner, all the way along the entire wall, where I have to install my top plate. It is approx. 1 1/2 to 2 inches in diameter. Should I just put the top plate in front of it, which would mean that I would be leaving approximate 1 1/2 to 2 inches away from the block wall before I start my stud work? Or is there something else that I should do? I don't really mind losing that amount of space on this wall..


Y.M. - Yes, you should be doing that anyway. You want to leave a space about 1 1/2" to 2" away from your block wall. You need this area for air circulation between all your new walls and the block walls. 



yummy mummy said:


> Also, when the studs are put 16 inches on center, does that mean that there is exactly a 16 inch opening between one stud and the other?


Y.M., that is not what that means. What it means is: From the center of your first stud to the center of your next stud, the measurement should be exactly 16".


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

I think I understand.

I do understand 16 inches on center. (Center point of one stud, to the center point of the other stud is 16 inches.)

Therefore, as I figure, the empty space in between the 2 studs is always going to be 14 1/2 inches? 
Is this correct?


thanks


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

if measuring from center is too difficult to do, I always do measuring from left to left or right to right edge of the stud, 16 inches, it is the same effect... so the space your are talking about would be 16 minus width of the stud... try to do this measuring good, it will help later on when doing insulation as insulation are precutted expecting this dimension...

about the other question you posted earlier regarding pipes...etc. you need to build coners here or there in situations like this... it is always not possible to build a complete square 4 side walls in any room due to obstacles by the pipes... etc...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

thanks for the info. kuiporng.

So the space inbetween the studs (empty space is 14 1/2 inches)
Is this correct.

If this is correct then I am measuring right.

Regarding the pipe.
I think I will go with what Atlantic said, and move away from the wall, as this is a small pipe and I don't think that I need to build around it.
But like you said, I do have to build around other obstacles.

Will let you know.
I have to get this stud measuring right before I start.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

14 and half inches, that is right.... but you know the width of the stud may varys.... in theory ... you should measure from left to left edge to be 16 inches rather than spacing equal 14.5 inches... however... this is more academic than practical as in your case, you probably know the width of the stud is fixed at 1.5 inches...

anyhow... I myself, wouldn't move the entire wall away for 2 inches to give way for the pipe, because there are two problems I see for doing this: 1. you lose space, 2. how you can keep the insulation falling off to these 2 inches spaces, well I am sure you can do somthing...but a space behind also not as good efficency on insulating the room I believe as cold air can travel freely behind the wall... I think building corner is more works than material costs... anyhow... it is not the end of the world... you can still do it either way...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

thanks for the information.

I now have it straight.
I think I will measure from left side of stud to left side of other stud, since my measuring tape has a red colour "16, 32, etc." and that is easier to remember.

Thanks a lot to both of you, Atlantic and Kuiporng.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Kuiporng*

Kuiporng

How are you lifting the drywall?
Especially to the ceiling?

Do you have a drywall lift, and would you know if they rent them out?

Also, how are you getting the drywall to your basement once it is delivered.

I know I am not at that stage yet, but I am currious.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Good questions:

HD delivered drywall to your house (I think driveway only) for $60 bucks regardless of quantities.

They rent drywall lifter for $40 per day which suppose to be used by single person. but I am not going to rent one, as my cousin happens in town I will borrow his hand instead. For that, you need two T-shaped stand (self made by 2x4) at height of wall plus a little bit to hold the drywall onto the ceiling... I also purchased a $100 moving cart stand from Canadian Tire which I intend to put the drywall on top then use the Tshaped to hold it up then stand on it for screwing... all that in my mind only... will let you know how it goes...

I need to take off the door(s) for various location to help ease of transporting the drywalls down to the basement... I haven't tried yet but I think it can be barely done... it is indeed a valid concern. my co-worker has to take out part of their carpeted floor/subfloor to do the same transportation... I couldn't do the same and don't want to as I am hardwooded....


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

You have it all planned out. 
Good for you.
I hope it works out. 
Let me know

When I am ready for my drywall, can I not bring it with another person through my side door?
The drywall is only 4 feet wide and my door is taller than that.
Is this how you are bringing it down the basement?

I sure hope I don't have to take any door out.

Also, can I not use 3/8 inch thick drywall for the ceiling and wall, as this is lighter?
What do you think?
Or maybe just 3/8 inch for ceiling?

I think I will also end up making a T bar.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

the book said ceiling drywall should be thicker rather than thinner than the walls... but AtlanticWBConst said 0.5" inch is fine... now you remind me about 3/8 thickness.... I don't know if I want to do that... because looks like the norm is 0.5" and you see home depot selling them like the standard by the way they display it.... I probably stick by that to avoid unforeseen problem.... but other people are welcome to comment about this point....

everyhouse layout is different so bring in drywalls probably different in my case than yours... but sounds like yours is easier as you have a side door right in front of the basement entry where in mine is 90 degree...


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## Hammatime (Oct 2, 2006)

I would use 1/2" for everything. If you start getting different sizes you have to make sure you get the right amount of each. If you get all one size you don't have to worry about that. Also if you are going to drywall the ceiling in your basement, take pictures of the pipes and such before you drywall. Then when you get a leak you know exactly where the pipe is in the ceiling. Usually when you see a water stain in the ceiling, it is not where the leak is it is where the water pooled.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

yummy mummy said:


> When I am ready for my drywall, can I not bring it with another person through my side door?.


Yes, you can. You can also check to see if there is a local Drywall supply warehouse in your area and see what their price difference s to have it delivered and brought into your house.



yummy mummy said:


> The drywall is only 4 feet wide and my door is taller than that.
> Is this how you are bringing it down the basement?
> I sure hope I don't have to take any door out.


Should be no problems. No, you should NOT have to take the door out.



yummy mummy said:


> Also, can I not use 3/8 inch thick drywall for the ceiling and wall, as this is lighter?What do you think?Or maybe just 3/8 inch for ceiling?
> I think I will also end up making a T bar.


Use 1/2 ". We only use 3/8" when we 'go over' bad plaster or have to make up on thicknesses. 
Stick with the residential industry standard 1/2".


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*atlantic*

Thank goodness that I can eventually bring drywall into the house, or
else, if I had to dismantle my home to get this drywall in, I think I was about ready to quit right now.

I did purchase today, a power actuated fastener.


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Some Thoughts on Rasement Renovation*

I finished my 1100 sq. ft. basement last year and can offer some advice. My house is an 1878 Italianate Victorian in Mass. My basement walls were built by an inebriated mason, very uneven and with excess mortar everrywhere. I first wirebrushed and vacuumed the walls and brick columns to remove all the exfoliating mortar and then put on (2) coats of UGL brick sealer (the thick white mud stuff) using a wallpaper brush. For the main bar area I wanted T&G paneling and wanted to maximize space so I furred the walls with 1x3" spruce; this was a big mistake, I had to shim out up to 2" in places and the whole job was a time consuming nightmare. I used a hammer drill and TAPCON concrete screws ( which worked pretty well much better and easier than masonry nails). It would have been faster and easier to just frame up new walls. The ceiling was a major problem as it had electrical and plumbing everywhere below the joists, I had to move a lot of it in order to maximize headroom for the dropped ceiling. For the bottom plates I bought a Remington powder actuated gun and fasteners which wouldn't penetrate the concrete floor sufficiently; I returned it and went with the TAPCONS (as above) which again worked fine. With the minimal headroom I had to get creative with the HVAC ducting which runs along an outside wall, I went to a low-profile rectangular duct and built an enclosure 17' long out of Birch ply (stained and poly'd) . Around an angled soil pipe I built a tapered trapezoidal enclosure out of sheet Copper which turned out very nicely. The main thing I would emphasize is to really think everything through before starting; especially electrical, HVAC, plumbing, lighting etc. I installed an Armstrong Tin-look dropped ceiling which I believe is the best type for a basement as you retain good access to all the overhead utilities, is easy to install, looks good and allows replacement of individual tiles as needed.
Good Luck with your project.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Could you show pictures on your installed ceiling... I having bought drywall yet and may want to consider all options before committing... why would you not go with drywall ceilings if you have limited headroom space?

Just off to HD to check the ceiling options... obviously, suspended ceiling offer advantageous of accessible to ceiling inside .... 

anyhow I will stay with my plan with drywall in my case... after taking into consideration of cost, look, space...etc.


just interested in exactly what is the meaning of this statement: "For the main bar area I wanted T&G paneling and wanted to maximize space so I furred the walls with 1x3" spruce; this was a big mistake, I had to shim out up to 2" in places and the whole job was a time consuming nightmare. " 
if you don't mind providing more details... for curiorsity and knowledge/experience sake


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*colonel hogan*

Thanks for the information about your experiences with your basement reno.

I think I have thought out the project. At least at this point I think I have. I may change how I feel later.

There is no plumbing in my place that I have to move. The only electrical that I want is 7 extra outlets and possibly 10 pot lights. That is it with electrical.

At this point, I think that it is pretty straight forward.
I, like, Kuiporng, would love to entertain another form of ceiling, other than drywall, but my ceiling is only 7 feet tall and that would cut into my headspace.

So, I will stick with drywall, I think.

I also am curious as to why the panelling did not work out.

I personally was thinking about panelling, but I really don't like the look.

As to the power actuated fastener; I have not tried it yet.
My concrete is approximately 60 years old, in the basement.
I really hope they will work.


Appreciate your input.


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Basement Options*

The Armstrong ceiling was very inexpensive, check Home Depot for prices (provide perimeter in linear feet and area in square feet in order to determine how many wall angles, main tees, cross tees, and tiles are required. I don't understand why anybody would deal with the expense, hassle, and painful labor involved with sheetrock in any ceiling let alone a basement. One of the previous replies to this original thread referred to making a map opf your utilities so that if you had a leak you could locate the source, and then cut open a ceiling , make utility repairs and then patch the ceiling. I personally think that is nuts.


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Basement Ceiling*

I was trying to make the most of at best 6'6" ceiling clearance (after ceramic tile) with the Armstrong suspended ceiling. I installed it approximately 21/2 -3" below joist height for a finished ceiling of around 6'2". It cost (for around 660 sq. ft. of the main bar area) $600-700 and took three of us about (2) days to install without any special tools or hassles. I did not require any hired laor to load, transport, or unload it. I have used a rented sheetrock jack in my barn to install 7/16" OSB ceilings and it is still a two man job and no piece of cake at that.


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Suspended vs. Dry-Wall Ceiling*

Th ceiling joists are rough-sawn chestnut and and vary in height by about 1/2-3/4" so furring would have been necessary.


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## AtlanticWBConst. (May 12, 2006)

Sheetrock ceilings are actually not that hard to put on a basement ceiling...
They can look much better than a 'commercial-looking' armstrong tile ceiling. 
That is just my personal opinion.....Tho, out of the 500 or so basements we have remodeled, I would say that about 70 percent go with the sheetrock ceilings...
(What we do with areas that require access, is to simply...put an 'access panel' where shut-offs or other utilities may be - these are white, the same color as the ceilings so they don't stand out at all)


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I think Colonel has a point for DIYers, whereas for contractors like AtlanticWBConst, nothing is difficults... so everyone will go for the look... but I still don't understand the pricing... apart from labours... material costs for sheetrocks should be lower than drop ceiling... that is why I choose sheetrock as I am going to DIY and labour cost is not counted... please correct me if this is not correct for material cost comparison...


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Furred Walls for T&G Panelling*

The walls were bowed out in the middle and from one end to another. I had to run four courses of furring, each strip had to be shimmed along its length to get a straight line and each course had to be shimmed to the next in order to stay plumb. Since the wall was bowed out in the middle, I started with the middle course and then did the courses above and below. The finished product looks great (to me) and I receive many compliments but if I were to do the job for someone else under similiar circumstances I would recommend building a wall which I can do in a day.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

thanks for the explanation, Colonel, one more question for your ceiling,

Is there any portion of ceiling in your basement significant lower, like 1 feet, than the rest, in my case I do... if you also do, how do you handle the difference in height using drop ceiling approach? I suppose in my case I can do a partial drywall for that lower portion and the major other parts use drop ceiling... don't know if this is strange looking.... did I answer the question myself?... or you have better suggestions...


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Dropped Ceiling in Basement*

I should mention the other option (also from Armstrong), in my wine cellar (which I built first, priorities you know) I used an Armstrong "Easy-Up" Tin-Look ceiling which attaches to tracks with clips, this allows you to fasten the tracks directly (shimming as necessary) to the joists and saves at least 2" of headroom. There is no exposed framing and it looks exactly like a tin ceiling. also you can still remove the panels for access. Armstrong also offers Easy-Up in plank form which I have in the master bedroom these are white woodgrain textured random length planks that attach to the same tracks with the same clips. My other main problem in my basement was that there were sevceral areas requiring ceiling access to utilities, SAT cable etc. so with drywall I would need 6-8 access panels at least.


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## Colonel Hogan (Sep 3, 2006)

*Kuiporng*

I didn't see your question before my last post. No, my floor to ceiling relationship is the same. But my friend who helped me has done alot of 50-60's ranch house basements in the area that have variations in ceiling height. In those cases he installs VERTICAL ceiling panels to bridge the gap from higher to lower ceilings. He also mentioned that sometimes doorways are f"d up and he adds sloped track on each side with the panel angled up or down to meet the door casing. 
I would be happy to post pictures (I have quite a few) can you tell me how to do so? Also they are fairly high-resolution, what size would be best (I don't want to slow down everyone's computers)?


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Colonel Hogan*

I also would like to see the pictures. 
And I also have different height on certain parts of my basement,
ie. furnact ducts that drop down approx. 1 foot, making that area 6 ft. height.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Hi Colonel,

I am not sure the best way of posting pictures...I used the kind of dump way by linking to Yahoo's picutres... which is not too good at resolution....

Regarding the drop ceiling, I checked the pricing at HD, the contractor types which is the office dump looking types are somthing like 70 cents per sq.ft... the more good looking types are somewhat $2 per sq. ft... if you want the good looking type, the tiles alone cost $2000 dollars, not to count the accessories... for sheet what, it is about 30 cents per sq. ft. so a 1000 sq. ft only cost $300 dollars, that alone is 6 times different in cost...

that probably be the main reason why people go with drywall.. even for contractor, they probably don't want to spent such money to cutdown their profit...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Colonel Hogan*

I also had to return my Remington tool, as I found it too loud and did not like the smell that it created.

It did work for me though.

So I purchased a hammer drill, and will try to work with that.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Atlantic or Kuiporng*

I have purchased pressure treated 2 X 4s but I find them expensive, as they are 5 dollars each.

What did you do instead? 
And how did you do it.

Can I use vapor barrier plastic that I have from the insullation that I removed?

Do I just put it under the 2 X 4, and then screw it between the wood and concrete floor?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Hi Yummy mummy,

Presure treated wood is more expensive like you said, the cheapest way is to use what you described, some sort of plastics, builders who did a couples of bottome plates in our basement even worst, they use garbage bags type plastics, which is thinner then the vapour barrier you are talking about... Home Depot also selling some precutted form type sil materials for that purpose, it is more professional look and easier to handle as it won't slip through, but practically any different than plastic, probably not...

However, I am sure there are people here to advice you to stay with pressure treated wood as it offer better protection from wood damaging in case of too much water leak in the basement at any accident...

so the bottom line, it is really a personal favour and no fix rule... but if you did apply for a permit, you might want to double check if they accept plastic as separator... I believe the code requirement is minimum and therefore they should, just to be sure... but sounds like you didn't apply for a permit and then this is not a concern either...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*Any recommendation on a saw*

I need to purchase a hand saw.

Does anyone have any type that they would recommend. I will be cutting 2X4s mainly.

I am afraid to buy an electric one, as I have never used one and am afraid that I will cut myself.

Is there any saw that is shorter than the usual ones?

I have one but it is too long and at times gets stuck and bends.


Thanks for anyones advise, though I would love to hear from my 2 buddies, Kuiporng and Atlantic!


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

You need to buy a circular saw. Doing it by hand doesn't make sense, well, that may be a strong words, but it really is...... 

scaring of using electric saw is normal, just try a few cuts and you won't be scare no more...


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## Sportbilly (Jul 31, 2005)

I have a Stanley Fat Max handsaw that's about 18 inches long, it's great for cutting occasional studs, nice and sharp, just watch out for nails.

For most of my stuff I use a table saw, can't be beat around the house, but I keep the handsaw in the truck, since I don't have reliable power.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I am trying to put down my bottom plate, and am noticing that my concrete floor slopes down and my plate is not level.

What do I do now? It is about 1/4 inch sloping in towards the center of the room.

Do I put some sort of small pieces of wood underneath to bring it up to level?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

for the width of the 2x4, 4 inch you are talking about, the slopping should have no effect and you shouldn't need to worry about it, when you install the stud, just make sure it is level, up right, where you can use a hammer pushing it a bit upfront or back...

that is my opinion...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

Thanks. 
I did think that it would not matter, but wanted to make sure.
When the stud goes in, as long as I make sure that it is plumb and level vertically, that should not matter.


Thanks a lot.
I am VERY SLOWLY coming along.
(Have 2 young ones to take care of and husband) (lol)


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*problem with drill bit*

I am having a problem with my drill bit.

After drilling in Tapcon screws, I noticed that the drill bit is wearing out.

It seems that while I am screwing down, the drill bit gets dislodged.
Should I be pushing down harder?


Thanks


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I got similar problem before when I purchased some bits from CT on sale, I then refund them. The quality of the bits is important, some bits with bad quality is not up to the job. You probably using those...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

I am using Black and Decker bits, that came in a package, with lots of them for 20 dollars.
I guess they are probably not that good.

Should I be pushing down harder on the head of the screw?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

if you used the drill bit come with the tapcon screws to drill with hammer drill at the right depth, it shouldn't be that difficult to screw the tapcon screws... very likely you don't have enough depth for your drilling with hammer drill, for that, you need to practice... drilling too much does not harm generally, but drilling too little you won't be able to screw the tapcon screw at the end... and will break your bit... try to drill deeper first and see if your issue ressolved...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*kuiporng*

I did manage to get the screws in, but just noticed
that the drill bit was a bit worn down.


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

Yes the drill bit will get worn down , base on how hard your concrete, you need to buy new bits after so many drills...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

I thought so.
They can't possibly last all my life!

Thanks for the information.

How is your renovation coming along?
Have you started the drywalling?


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

drywalls are scheduled to arrive this Saturday... there are 76 4x8 of them... I think my first job is to move them from the driveway to garage or basement... we are lucky if we can get that done all in one day... because to me that is a lot of moving...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

Boy, that is a lot of moving.

When it is time for me to do drywall, I have planned to ask a friend with a truck to bring me 3 or 4 pieces at a time and then once I have used those, I will ask him to bring me some more.

Last week, I took my husband to Rona and we tried to see if we could both lift one piece of drywall together and we could, so I am happy that we can do that together at least.

Lucky for you, you are almost done your basement.


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## Webguy64 (Apr 4, 2007)

*Life of a drill bit*



yummy mummy said:


> I am having a problem with my drill bit.
> 
> After drilling in Tapcon screws, I noticed that the drill bit is wearing out.
> 
> ...


I've had the same question. I've been using the extra long Bosch bits in a hammer drill, and I've gone thru 3 of them already (in about 60 feet of wall). At about $8 a pop it adds up! Maybe I'm pushing too hard, and should just let the hammer drill do the work? Or is that about the life expectancy when drilling into concrete?

http://www.finishabasement.com


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## NateHanson (Apr 15, 2007)

yummy mummy said:


> I am having a problem with my drill bit.
> 
> After drilling in Tapcon screws, I noticed that the drill bit is wearing out.
> 
> ...


I think what you're actually saying is that the phillips head bit that you're using to screw in the tapcon screws into the concrete (AFTER drilling the holes) are slipping and wearing out. Right? 

Make sure you are using the right size phillips bit. There are #1, #2, and #3 size phillips heads. (three being the largest). #2 is most common (drywall screws, etc) but for a big tapcon you might need a #3. The #3 is much stubbier, with a noticeable flat spot on the tip. 

Other things that help keep a phillips bit from slipping is putting your driver in low speed (most drivers have a Hi-Lo or I-II switch), and try not to rev up the driver too much. Keep it slow and steady. 

It's also important to keep the driver perfectly in-line with the screw. If you're at an angle at all the bit will slip. 

Also keeping enough pressure on the driver will help. Position yourself so you can lean against the driver with your body weight. Sometimes that means getting on a step-ladder for operations at shoulder height. Working at chest or belly height will let you really lean into it. 

Basically, Philips screws are a crappy design, and they tend to slip and require more effort than they should, but we're stuck with them for the most part. When at all possible, use square-drive fasteners (the bit is a little cube on the end and the screws have a little square-shaped hole). They are a FAR SUPERIOR design, and we are starting to see them more often. They don't slip at all, and you don't have to lean into them the way you do with philips.


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

*natehanson*

You are absolutely correct in all your findings of the phillips head.

I did discover that the bit I was using was too small.

And yes, the angle it goes in makes a difference.

But, "hoooray" I am done with tapcons for now.

(For my framing I did use the square head, but I put them in by hand, (by the time it took to remove the drill bit (for pilot hole), and put on the other one for the screw, I figured I would just put it in by hand, as I was "stick building" when I did my framing.



I need a really bad manicure.........:laughing:


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I think when you are going to hang drywalls, you will find out you need a power driver, then you will go out to get it... you will then regret you should have got it earlier to save you all these hand driving...


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

You are probably right.......
I probably will get the power driver

I only have two ducts to box in and then I will be ready for drywall.
It seems that now that it is better weather, I have less time to spend in the basement......

Oh well, it's only been 7 months so far that I have been working on it. :laughing:


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## KUIPORNG (Jan 11, 2006)

I guess you should be done in 2008


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## yummy mummy (Sep 11, 2006)

KUIPORNG said:


> I guess you should be done in 2008


 
If I'm lucky.....:laughing:


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